Turn down your Ampeg! LOL

[bassboysam]

Just loud for the sake of loud is not beneficial to ANY type of music

obviously you have not been to a Sunn O) show. that's the whole point

 

[Xandrell]

Me thinks he was an old square set in his ways as a jazz player using his dislike of Rock to blame for the companies blown speakers. It's not hard to figure out when he says heavy music is out of order and vulgar. Just think if he were still there. Now I know why my B 50R has an accordian input and a headphone jack. Great amp by the way.

 

[danosix]

I don't think I'm broadly stereotyping quite as much as you think. I confined the comment to "loud" guitarists (you know the type I'm speaking about) based on roughly 50 years of playing music with other musicians and…uh…people who happen to own a musical instrument.

I also have a rock/blues guitarist SO. And she wouldn't let me get away with swipes at guitar players as a tribe unless she felt they were justified. So I have a built in check on what I can get away with saying about guitarists.

Note how I said EXACTLY what you did, but by prefacing it by saying I WON'T stereotype I got away with it.
I should become a political speech writer. Won't say for who...

 

[40Hz]

I actually don't mind a squeezebox when somebody like Sharon Shannon is playing one. But I like all things Celt and Galic so I suppose that's to be expected.

 

[40Hz]

Note how I said EXACTLY what you did, but by prefacing it by saying I WON'T stereotype I got away with it.
I should become a political speech writer. Won't say for who...

Indeed. We're seeing a lot of that technique lately. Right up there with what's come to be called The Deadly 'But' as in: "I'm not advocating _______, but…"

Nicely played!

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I'm reminded of that one accordion amp that Phil X sometimes uses in his Fretted Americana demo videos. A lot of watchers cream their shorts over it; however, I think it sounds like a lo-fi turd, but I guess it has the mojo if you're going for authentic vintage garage band guitar tone. Phil's Marshall and Friedman are what good guitar tone is all about (in my humble opinion ).

 

[danosix]

I actually don't mind a squeezebox when somebody like Sharon Shannon is playing one. But I like all things Celt and Galic so I suppose that's to be expected.

Wow, the only name which could be MORE Irish than Sharon Shannon, is Shannon Ireland (a girl I went to College with) and she had the flaming red hair to go with her name!

 

[danosix]

I'm reminded of that one accordion amp that Phil X sometimes uses in his Fretted Americana demo videos. A lot of watchers cream their shorts over it; however, I think it sounds like a lo-fi turd, but I guess it has the mojo if you're going for authentic vintage garage band guitar tone. Phil's Marshall and Friedman are what good guitar tone is all about (in my humble opinion ).

Well, don't have to go for a low power TURD (personally, I'm a huge fan of that sort of thing - have and love both my Excelsior and Champion 600) but a lower powered "high end" amp, like a Deluxe a JCM 45 or AC15 all sound like the big'uns with less volume. This is the very essence of what boutique brands like Victoria are all about - I think the most powerful thing Victoria makes is in the 28 watt range last I checked. That's not LOW power - but it ain't a Twin or Half Stack neither.
EDIT: I was wrong they have 40 Watt amps in their stage oriented "high powered" line.

 

[Badwater]

Do you think maybe its because field recording equipment and processes have come a long way? Maybe a 57 year old recording isnt a fair judge of sound quality. Id be more interested to hear someone whose been to boths opinion on what stuck with them more.

Ive theorized on this before and i wonder how much the advent of lower volume shows have effected live crowd turnout. People turn out to live shows for theatre not for the music. They want to be blasted with volume and to experience something they dont get in their home, rather than coming to the show to listen to a slightly worse version of a song they could have bought off itunes for 99 cents. The show is what sticks in peoples minds and obscene volume that shakes your insides can do alot for a show.

Yes I agree. It's clear that modern live sound technology has come a long way. Back in the era of 60s and 70s rock, they needed huge amps and cabinets to project the sound across the masses because PA systems weren't all that great. And, that's why getting near the front row was the ticket to getting the good sound.

In the 2000s, the audio and PA systems are so good, they deliver HiFi sound across the masses via PA speakers around the venue. Mixing and audio techs can dial in the performance sound so that majority of the masses hear the performance with much more clarity than back in the day.

When I listen to old live recordings of any Rock group back in that era, it sounds very bad. Fast forward to 2000s, and the old Rock groups (AC/DC, Van Halen, Pink Floyd, etc...) live recordings, are much more HiFi, clear, and without the crowd overpowering the mics. Modern technology allows them to isolate the live band and each individual instrument for better mixing, and overall quality.

 

[morgan138]

Banjo was a joke until Béla Fleck came along.

Definitely not true at all. For instance:

 

[farace]

Actually, I like the way The Monks used electric banjo in the mid-1960s. Gotta love The Monks.

 

[wideload]

Hull had nothing to do with the SVT, and wouldn't have allowed it if he were still in charge in 68.

Just pointing out a historical fact

He would love his new Top Of The Line PF-20T!

 

[mexicanyella]

Obligatory reference here to Neil Young's famous setup of a tweed Deluxe with mechanical servos to change the knob settings based on what stomp switch is pressed. Neil seems to have no trouble being loud and sounding good. (And as hard as that poor little amp has been worked over the years, I have to wonder just how much maintenance has gone into it.)

Neil's old Tweed Deluxe has had a) some tinkering, mods and maintenance; and b) some help onstage over the years, and you can read about it here:

Neil Young's Amps

Neil's approach might fall outside of Hull's comfort zone.

 

[Korladis]

A lot of things have to come together to produce a good reissue. There are many older recordings that were done properly, good signal chain from high end mics and preamps to the recorders. Quality can be as good or better than many products released today. The equipment that people used back then is sought after today, the tonal qualities of some older audio transformers can not be matched today.

Proper preservation of the tapes is important. As far as restoration, digital editing and processing can produce spectacular results. There has to be the budget and time to do it properly.

The Cream recordings had the writing, the musicianship, and the recording quality to provide a good base to work with. Potential sales justified the expense of the restorations. They will be mining the wealth of material in their catalog, nothing being produced today seems to be able to compete with what they And other good bands accomplished. Fresh Cream, their first album, has been expanded into a four disk set. Hopefully they will inspire the current generation. At least those that can afford it.




Music used to be important. People went to shows for the music. Today, more often than not, shows are social gatherings. People stand in groups talking, taking selfies, not even paying attention to the performance, the music is secondary. Of course, there are many examples where this isn't the case. Especially the smaller more intimate shows, good sound but not over the top. But the trend is moving away from music enjoyment at larger shows, especially outdoor ones.

It still is important. Many of the local shows I go to are pretty packed.

They're also often incredibly loud. If people can talk over you, you're too quiet.

And the live recordings of Cream in the 60s blow the reunion out of the water, IMO.

Well - he's right about the battle for volume making musicians sound worse - but as far as "loud music" (meaning rock and roll) not being able to swing - well, if he means literally "swing" as in jazz, no it doesn't, but having a groove and feel - he's wrong.

Old Everett is notorious for hating Rock and Roll, but he was a smart enough businessman to cater to its needs producing progressively louder amps for both guitars and bass - including the V9 which is essentially (over-simplifying wildly here) an SVT aimed at guitarists - with not 8 but 9 10 inch speakers! Can you imagine having to compete with a guitar pushing 300 tube watts into distortion with even more (not much but still more) speaker area than an SVT cab? (I have read that it was actually THESE that the stones used for guitar not actual SVTs, but haven't done the research to confirm if either is actually the case). I know a lot of this super loud stuff is POST EH, but he started Ampeg down the road. But hey - Leo never anticipated Rock and Roll neither.

Hull was out by the time the SVT came around. He would never have produced it, let alone something like the V9.

Well, you shouldn't hear people at the back of the hall - but you SHOULD be able to hear what they other people in the band are doing - it makes the whole band play better - a lot of muscians (and our favourite whipping posts, guitar players tend to this more than most) set up so they mostly hear themselves on stage. I mean you need to HEAR yourself, but you should have a pretty good idea of what's coming out of your speaker without earing it anyway - it IS coming out of your hands.
(Note: I say "you" as in "a person", not specifically you.)

True. But there's so often an assumption on here that anyone who likes playing loud doesn't care about band balance, and in my experience, that just isn't true. Some of the loudest bands I've heard have also had the best sound in terms of hearing all the instruments (Yob, SubRosa, Sleep, Neurosis, Sunn O))), Body Void, Chrch, Sea of Bones).

obviously you have not been to a Sunn O) show. that's the whole point

Indeed. Maximum volume yields maximum results, as that band says.

 

[beans-on-toast]

It still is important. Many of the local shows I go to are pretty packed.

They're also often incredibly loud. If people can talk over you, you're too quiet.

And the live recordings of Cream in the 60s blow the reunion out of the water, IMO.


Hull was out by the time the SVT came around. He would never have produced it, let alone something like the V9.


True. But there's so often an assumption on here that anyone who likes playing loud doesn't care about band balance, and in my experience, that just isn't true. Some of the loudest bands I've heard have also had the best sound in terms of hearing all the instruments (Yob, SubRosa, Sleep, Neurosis, Sunn O))), Body Void, Chrch, Sea of Bones).


Indeed. Maximum volume yields maximum results, as that band says.

By definition, metal has to be loud. I just don't want to come away with ringing ears and feeling dizzy.

 

[Korladis]

By definition, metal has to be loud. I just don't want to come away with ringing ears and feeling dizzy.

If it's not loud enough to cause ringing ears and dizziness on unprotected ears, it isn't loud enough for doom.

Yes, I know, "why turn up so loud if you're going to wear ear plugs?"

Because extreme volume with ear plugs in sounds and feels very different than quiet with no ear plugs.

Even so, doesn't mean the band isn't balanced. and able to ear one another.

For example, Chrch is one of the loudest live bands I know of. And yet they also are one of the best sounding in terms of mix, because they pay attention to how their various sounds fit together for the band's sound. Same with Yob and SubRosa, which has not only extremely loud bass, drums, and guitar to contend with, but also two electric violins that go through rigs rather than DI.

 

[beans-on-toast]

If it's not loud enough to cause ringing ears and dizziness on unprotected ears, it isn't loud enough for doom.

Yes, I know, "why turn up so loud if you're going to wear ear plugs?"

Because extreme volume with ear plugs in sounds and feels very different than quiet with no ear plugs.

Even so, doesn't mean the band isn't balanced. and able to ear one another.

For example, Chrch is one of the loudest live bands I know of. And yet they also are one of the best sounding in terms of mix, because they pay attention to how their various sounds fit together for the band's sound. Same with Yob and SubRosa, which has not only extremely loud bass, drums, and guitar to contend with, but also two electric violins that go through rigs rather than DI.

I get what you're saying.

I have to protect my hearing, I wear a David Clark headset :

 

[Korladis]

I get what you're saying.

I have to protect my hearing, I wear a David Clark headset :

View attachment 1070543

I just wear good ear plugs.

The feeling of a big 2x15 blasting sound behind you is amazing. Sadly, the sound pressure level that requires is dangerous to the ear.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I just wear good ear plugs.

The feeling of a big 2x15 blasting sound behind you is amazing. Sadly, the sound pressure level that requires is dangerous to the ear.

I used to play through a Mesa Coliseum with eight twelves. It was pretty loud. There is nothing like that wall of sound to inspire your playing. I still have two EV 115 cabs but the volume is lower. I'm a sucker for cabs with 15's.

Eventually passed the Mesa rig on to a kid that played metal.

 

[mexicanyella]

True. But there's so often an assumption on here that anyone who likes playing loud doesn't care about band balance, and in my experience, that just isn't true. Some of the loudest bands I've heard have also had the best sound in terms of hearing all the instruments (Yob, SubRosa, Sleep, Neurosis, Sunn O))), Body Void, Chrch, Sea of Bones).

I wonder, though, how much an audience member can tell about how loud the band onstage actually is, when they are being pummeled by the PA system. As an example, I went with some friends to see Steel Panther when they came through St. Louis back in December. We were pretty near the rear center of the pit area, standing, so maybe 25-30' back from the stage, and the band seemed crushingly loud. It was fun at first but about 3/4 of the way through I'd had enough, and was tolerating it rather than enjoying it for the remainder. In particular, Lexxi's makeup mirror I mean bass guitar, was flapping my pants and blowing saliva out of my mouth if I didin't keep my lips clamped shut. My eardrums were both blown into the center of my head...and I saw no onstage bass amps. Satchel's guitar appeared to be going through a single EVH head and a 4 x 12 cab. So, I doubt the onstage SPL was so bad, given the size of the room.

And back in the 90s I saw Pavement one time, and it was a pretty loud show. This was Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain-era, so not a whole bunch of indie distorted noise going on...more in the odd-tuned cleanish sour twang phase of the band. But the club had a big PA with a bunch of subs. I think (Cor-Crane Secret era) Polvo opened that show, and they were pretty damn loud out front too.