Tweeters?..... We Don't Need No Stinking Tweeters!

[Thumper19605]

The range of a tweeter has nothing to do with the fundamental so for me it is silly.
Go to the back of the room off to one side,the tweeter is irrelevant.
I am a tech so I get what you posted,to me the tweeter is a marketing ploy.
Only the player hears it,that drunk in the back or the ladies dancing could give a rip.
Just my opinion, we must all do what makes us happy.☺

 

[LiquidMidnight]

You don't necessarily "hear" highs in a mix the way you hear lows or mids, but they are there giving the bass presence and articulation. So while you may not necessarily hear the highs being produced by a tweeter in a mix, a good one is still doing its job. I've miced tweetered cabs right on the woofer and I've miced them in a way to catch some of the tweeter. I notice a big difference in what ends up in the bass's house mix.

 

[ThisBass]

The range of a tweeter has nothing to do with the fundamental so for me it is silly.
Go to the back of the room off to one side,the tweeter is irrelevant.
I am a tech so I get what you posted,to me the tweeter is a marketing ploy.
Only the player hears it,that drunk in the back or the ladies dancing could give a rip.
Just my opinion, we must all do what makes us happy.☺

If I understand it right then it would be enough to have a response of around 5kHz on FOH at most (unless it's a array system that is direcetd to front and sides as well, or having several tops to adjust sound direct to front and sides as well.

[sarcasm on]
ok, I think then I could lowpass my home stero system to around 5kHz because the highs are gone every time I'm off axis of the center of the cabs.

It then would be enough to have bass cabs where response rolls off around 3kHz at most.
There also then would be no need to repair a broken speaker in a 810 cab because the loss of loudness is nearly inaudible. There then also was no need to repair a tube amp because the player did not really notice that one of the 4 pentodes was gone.

A low budget grand piano made in china then would fit all the needs in a big concert hall because just the moment I'm on toilette the famous sound of a steinway grand piano is gone.

I bet most folks of the audience in a piano concert arn't musicians and don't hear a difference if the grand piano on stage is a steinway or something low budget made in china. And probably most folks don't worry about something like best seating place in a concert hall.
Never the less steinway is the most seen piano in concert halls all around the world.
[sarcasm off]

Every piano player knows that the perceived timbre when playing a piano isn't just the same like listening somewhere sitting at the audience. As the audience can't hear the same timbre like the player himself on stage would mean that a musical sounding performane of ANY instrument on stage does not matter.

I totally agree with LiquidMidnight, the meaning of a tweeter isn't to stay clearly in front, or cut sharp through the mix on stage. IMO/IME well balanced sounds are charcterized thereby that the missing of a component is more noticable then the pure presence.

 

[Thumper19605]

Ahh yep,

You don't necessarily "hear" highs in a mix the way you hear lows or mids, but they are there giving the bass presence and articulation. So while you may not necessarily hear the highs being produced by a tweeter in a mix, a good one is still doing its job. I've miced tweetered cabs right on the woofer and I've miced them in a way to catch some of the tweeter. I notice a big difference in what ends up in the bass's house mix.

Sure, I was speaking of amp alone with no pa support.
In that respect if if gives you what you want great. This bass, take a pill,sarcasim on. We do not agree. And I was talking amp alone club setting.

 

[Nighttrain1127]

I could never figure out why they decided on a tweeter instead of a mid bass/Midrange driver. It would make more sense and less sizzle.

 

[ThisBass]

Hi Thumper19605
Sorry, could not read any info that you refere to amp alone with no pa support.


The range of a tweeter has nothing to do with the fundamental so for me it is silly.
Go to the back of the room off to one side,the tweeter is irrelevant.
I am a tech so I get what you posted,to me the tweeter is a marketing ploy.
Only the player hears it,that drunk in the back or the ladies dancing could give a rip.
Just my opinion, we must all do what makes us happy.☺


So if I translated something wrong, I'm sorry because English isn't my first language.
May be it's best to let the discussion here end for me.

 

[Thumper19605]

No worries, I probably was not clear. and english is my first language.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Haven't read through all of the posts. I have pretty much experience with tweeters and I use a nice Italian supertweeter in a lot of my cabs. It starts at about 9khz. Pretty absurd for bass, right? I have a defeat switch for it. Even the guys that "hate tweeters" wind up preferring it on. There is a ton of useful, but subtle information up there. Unfortunately, most of the tweeters I hear would cause me to make the statement "I hate tweeters" If a tweeter draws attention to itself---at least to me---it's a bad tweeter. My philosophy re: tweeters is----you should only notice them when they're turned off. This is not an endorsement for my cabs---just my opinion that there is valuable musical information up there--if it's done correctly. Also---it's not just the quality of the driver---it's the crossover designer. Duke's Thunderchild 12 uses---in my opinion---a relatively lame horn driver. But---Duke is such a master at manipulating filters, et al, that it sounds world class. I trust Tom Bowlus's opinion a lot. He loves the new Wayne Jones cabs. He says that the high end is killin'. Wayne is using a tweeter that I HATE. But I'd bet it sounds great because like Duke, I assume that he knows how to manipulate crossover and filters to produce a killin' sound.

 

[agedhorse]

Agreed, there's a lot more to designing with a tweeter than just slapping it into a box with a crossover like object. Just as important, IMO, is the midrange voicing of the LF driver(s) it's paired with.

 

[Arjank]

-it's not just the quality of the driver---it's the crossover designer.

This is what I mentioned before, it's the implementation of the tweeter into the whole design. Even a cheap tweeter can sound ok with a good crossover design.

In the homeaudio DIY scene I've heard many, many designs with very expensive drivers but the end result was bad.....To me it's a sport to use the "gems" of the cheap segment and make a high-end sounding system with 'm.

My philosophy re: tweeters is----you should only notice them when they're turned off..

Exactly, 99% of the time that you can really hear the tweeter is when the cross-over point and design have been choosen badly.

Again, these are some of the reasons why I use a coaxial 8" mid/high driver for the range between 400hz-20khz. Although the tweeter starts at 1.8khz you won't hear the transition between the 8" mid and the tweeter, it sounds coherent.

 

[Thumper19605]

I have heard Fearfuls, I may build one of those. The small speaker with the larger one is logical to me.

 

[Thumpinshelton]

I think about 99.9% of the time I have it off. I just like the sound of the old school "thump" I get with it off. For me it is a personal preference and there is no right or wrong way, but for me it works.

 

[ebozzz]

I think about 99.9% of the time I have it off. I just like the sound of the old school "thump" I get with it off. For me it is a personal preference and there is no right or wrong way, but for me it works.

I'm still getting to know my tweeter-less cabs but I'd have to say they aren't necessarily Old School Thump regarding their default tone. I'd describe it as more of a modern take of a Vintage tone. That's especially true with the 4X8 cabs I have in my opinion.

 

[baxter_x]

That is very funny how I feel some kind of a "stranger" compared to all of you guys. Everytime there is a survey on who likes what, I feel I'm the only one liking things no one else likes!
When someone launches an active vs passive basses thread, I'm a one of those very rare bass player who claims they are 100% "active" players.
When someone raises a question about sealed or opened cabs, I'm one of those who claims to use only opened cabs, with tweeter obviously. Unlike, I would say, 85% of this board.

But that is probably because I am really in the modern tone and not at all in the old vintage tone.
But I'm fine with this, no offense to no one here

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Interesting thing I remember Duck Dunn saying. He was listening to the bass channel solo'd on an early recording. He told the engineer that their was too much treble in the sound. The engineer then played it back with the rest of the track. Duck said that it sat perfectly in the mix and didn't sound like too much treble.

 

[Arjank]

Interesting thing I remember Duck Dunn saying. He was listening to the bass channel solo'd on an early recording. He told the engineer that their was too much treble in the sound. The engineer then played it back with the rest of the track. Duck said that it sat perfectly in the mix and didn't sound like too much treble.

+1
Most of the time there's a huge difference between a good bass-sound that sits well in the mix and a solo bass-sound.

 

[Matt Dean]

I've been into TL606 cabs for a long time. My current set are a pair of Mesa Boogie Diesel 115s and think they sound awesome.

Don't really have much more to say on the topic... except I am all for playing what trips your trigger.

 

[JimmyM]

If I understand it right then it would be enough to have a response of around 5kHz on FOH at most (unless it's a array system that is direcetd to front and sides as well, or having several tops to adjust sound direct to front and sides as well.

[sarcasm on]
ok, I think then I could lowpass my home stero system to around 5kHz because the highs are gone every time I'm off axis of the center of the cabs.

It then would be enough to have bass cabs where response rolls off around 3kHz at most.
There also then would be no need to repair a broken speaker in a 810 cab because the loss of loudness is nearly inaudible. There then also was no need to repair a tube amp because the player did not really notice that one of the 4 pentodes was gone.

A low budget grand piano made in china then would fit all the needs in a big concert hall because just the moment I'm on toilette the famous sound of a steinway grand piano is gone.

I bet most folks of the audience in a piano concert arn't musicians and don't hear a difference if the grand piano on stage is a steinway or something low budget made in china. And probably most folks don't worry about something like best seating place in a concert hall.
Never the less steinway is the most seen piano in concert halls all around the world.
[sarcasm off]

Every piano player knows that the perceived timbre when playing a piano isn't just the same like listening somewhere sitting at the audience. As the audience can't hear the same timbre like the player himself on stage would mean that a musical sounding performane of ANY instrument on stage does not matter.

I totally agree with LiquidMidnight, the meaning of a tweeter isn't to stay clearly in front, or cut sharp through the mix on stage. IMO/IME well balanced sounds are charcterized thereby that the missing of a component is more noticable then the pure presence.

Wow, I don't even like tweeters all that much but I'm ready to use one after that shot of inspiration! Good doggone post, man. Should be mandatory reading for all musicians.

 

[GMC]

What gets me is when the bassist says...I don't like tweeters on my bass amp...and then lines out to a full range PA...which uses erm tweeters...
I have no love for piezo tweeters....but soft dome mid range units or quality horns can sound nice.

 

[ebozzz]

Ok, let me flip the script. Is it possible to make a quality, good sounding cab with no tweeer that provides the spectrums needed for most applications? Based on my recent experiences, I'd say that this is somewhat of a rhetorical question.