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two 210's or one 410

A

a e i o u

Oct 25, 2003
413
2
38
palmer massachusetts
#1
-Forget all my other threads about cabs, this is my ultimate serious one, my final choice, the last fronteer-

Ok. In a about one week from this weekend im going to either
1-sell my avatar 2x10 for money towards avatar4x10
2-add another avatar 2x10 to mine
3-sell the 2x10 and save up for a main stream brand 4x10
4-add an avatar 4x10 to my 2x10

I use an ampeg b2r, and am looking for a cab that will get me the most volume

the reason I'd do #1 is because I have heard that an amp does more work and will clip earlier if it powers multiple cabs, rather than one.

the reason I'd do #2 is because it would be cheaper for me to just buy that right away.

the reason I'd do #3 is because avatar rates their cabs wattage really high, and I have been told that if a cab is rated high, and the amp is rated a lot lower, than the amp will try to produce the same wattage that the cab is rated, causing major stress on the amp, which leads to early clipping, where as normal brands like ampeg have ratings near 500watts which is no where near avatar's rating

the reason I'd do #4 is because it would give me 6 speakers, which would move air, BUT then my amp would acording to what I've heard, stress its self out and the thing wouldnt get loud at all, it'd just be a big clipping party

:bawl:
 
#2
Originally posted by a e i o u
the reason I'd do #3 is because avatar rates their cabs wattage really high, and I have been told that if a cab is rated high, and the amp is rated a lot lower, than the amp will try to produce the same wattage that the cab is rated, causing major stress on the amp, which leads to early clipping, where as normal brands like ampeg have ratings near 500watts which is no where near avatar's rating

the reason I'd do #4 is because it would give me 6 speakers, which would move air, BUT then my amp would acording to what I've heard, stress its self out and the thing wouldnt get loud at all, it'd just be a big clipping party

:bawl:
Click to expand...
#3: whoever told you that is off their rocker... it's not the way it works. wattage from the amp is dependent upon the total gain and master volume of the amp (as well as from the bass and your playing style, EQ, etc). the wattage of the cabinet has absolutely no effect on the wattage of the head. although the impedance of the cab does, which they might have been talking about.

and #4: what is the impedance of your current cabinet? if your avatars are both 8 ohms then your cab SHOULD be able to handle that impedance (4 ohms). if one cab is rated at 4 ohms and another is 8, or they are both 4 ohms, you may be running the cabinet too hard (at 2.67 ohms or less, which many aren't rated for. i don't know about yours.) i'd do a search on impedance and ohms... it will show you the light. ;)
 
#3
I have the whole ohm thing down...

if i am to add the 4x10, I will get it in 8ohms, to go with my already owned 8ohm 2x10

My problem is the whole under powering hootinany! all these people say you underpower cabs with high wattage rating and such. my other problem is, does an amp do more work to push 2 cabs versus 1?

I'd rather go with avatar stuff than main stream, but i am so un enlightened about underpowering. Also if it means anything, I am plainng on getting a sansamp box thing very soon
 
#4
Your amp does not care how many cabs you use. It cares about the total combined resistance, or ohms, of the cabs or cab that you are using. For example; Rig #1 - you are using your ampeg head with a 410 cab that is rated at 4ohms. Rig #2 - you are using your ampeg head and a 210 and 410 cab that are both rated at 8ohms for a combined resistance of 4ohms. Your amp will work the same with either of these setups, as long as the resistance is the same. Amp stress, or horsepower, is determined by resistance(ohms).
 
#5
PS IMO, adding another Avatar 210 would be the quickest and easiest way to get more volume out of your amp. 410's are cool. But, hauling it around can be a pain. If you ever want to sell it, shipping will be a hassle because of its size. If you went with an all 410 rig and wanted to do a small coffe shop gig.... See my point. Stay modular. By using the 210's you can bring what what you need and leave home what you dont. I am not saying dont ever get a 410. Right now get the 210. When you have some more "scratch", get a 410. Then you will 2 speaker rigs!
 
#7
If you don't mind hauling the 410 around, I'd say get the 410 to add to your 210. 610 with the B2 should be plenty lound and you'll always have the option of using just the 210 when you want. I sometimes use 2 210 cabs with my band and it works fine.
 
#9
Originally posted by a e i o u
you say the amp doesn't care about the cab's wattage rating, but why do people say that MM 2x12s need alot of power?

Also, would having a total of 6 10s be alot louder than just 4 10s?
Click to expand...

The power handling capability of the cabinet(s) has no impact at all on the performance of the amp. The amp will make its max power at a given ohm load based completely on the preamp gain staging and available current from the power supply.

To an amp, speakers are simply resistors, it doesn't know if there are 20 or 2 speakers there, only a final ohm load.

The other side of that is that speakers are asolutely incapable of demanding power from an amp. They either handle the power that is pumped into them or they don't.

When you read that a cabinet needs a lot of power, it is because of the specs of the speakers and/or the cabinet design. Some cabinets are louder and/or go lower cleaner with less power than others. 500 watts on an Eden 410 is LOUD. 500 watts on an Acme 410 will hardly carry a small club.

To answer the question, assuming the same speakers and efficiencies, 6 tens will be 5-6 db louder than 4 tens under the same power. That is pretty significant.

Assuming same effeciences, two 210s will sound exactly the same as a 410 under the same power. Your amp won't know the difference.

I always recommend two cabs over one. More flexibility, easier to load, easier to carry, gives you a small gig/rehearsal option, etc.

Two cabs also allows you to get a longer speaker cable and split the cabs on each side of the stage to better cover a room without a PA.
 
#10
The B2R gives you 350 watts at 4ohms. I have never used the same head you have, but I did have a Hartke3500, which was 350 watts at 4ohms. I played an Eden410, and a Hartke 210 together. It was plenty loud for the barn we played in, and backyard deck parties.

I would add an Avatar 410. If you play small gigs more often, and move your cabs alot, you may be better off with adding just the 210. 610, or 410, you are gonna be plenty loud.

-Mike
 
#12
you can look at the specs of the cab as loose guideline. the higher the db rating the louder it should be (100 and above is pretty loud). the sensitivity rating (40 hz @ -3 db for instance) will tell you how low the cab can go... keep in mind that some look better on paper than they sound in real life, so let your ears be the true judge.

the avatar is a very efficient (loud) cabinet... it will be about as loud as the eden but it will not go quite as low (sensitivity).
 
#13
The advantage - and disadvantage - of getting another Avatar 2x10 is that it's exactly what you've already got (although it would be interesting to AB them and see if the new one has any discernable difference ;) ).

That's an advantage in that if one starts playing up, you've got a spare on hand - although that's a moot point if you're relying on both for the volume and sound you need. On the other hand, there's a lot to be said for thinking about pairing the 2x10 with something like a 1x15. That way you've got a blend of two types of sound, that might give a richer effect and you've also got two options for lower volume events where one cab will suffice.

Wulf
 
#14
Would you think the sound would be more full with just the 4x10 and not 4x10 and 2x10? I think it might because each individual speaker will get more watts which should make it sound fuller, but im more so looking for the straight up volume though.. Am I right, or would adding the 410 and 210 still have a full sound?
 
#17
well, the only setback of getting the 410 would be that the 410 will see 175watts and the 210 will see 175watts, therefore each speaker in the 410 will see 43.75watts whereas each speaker in the 210 will see 87.5watts...

BUT HONESTLY:

Bottom line, you want volume. Get the 410. More speakers will equal more volume... maybe not "spec" wise, but realistically, I bet it does.

We all sit around and read specs and procrastinate too much.

I bet if You tried out 2-2x10's compared to 1-4x10+1-2x10, the 410+210 would be louder.

Something to consider..

I dunno how much money you got or what your dealyo is, but have you ever considered just getting a used combo amp for the time being?

man, get say a used peavey 200watt 1x15 combo or something similar and split your signal and you will have all the volume you need for way less money... then save up and try stuff out and spend the real bux later on when you can make the propper decision for yourself.

I always needed more volume. This will sound funny but it is true. I use to use an old Sunn concert bass head with a big 2x15. It was decent, cut thru well, but no bottom.. no real loudness. I picked this little fender 1x12 combo up in the pawn shop and split my signal, EQ's the combo for pure lowend, boomy, fat, oldshool bass and left the sunn+2x15 normal and WOW.. I was loud.

It's fun having a cool stack of speakers and a cool "Pro Rig" or whatever, but sometimes you just gotta do what works.
 
#20
I've been playing through 2 SWR Goliath Jr III 2-10 cabinets for about a year. I went with 2 separate cabinets for the portability factor. It also enabled me to take only one cabinet for small gigs. They sound good (both together) but are not as tight as I'd like. I recently purchased a Goliath III 4-10 and the sound is totally different than the 2 Jr's together. Much tighter and compressed and absolutely no distortion. In my case I believe it's due to the venting of the Jr cabinets. They are designed to produce more bass than the earlier designs (front vent in lieu of rear port) and are therefore a much looser sounding cabinet. The Goliath III speakers barely move when I slap and pop but the Jr III speakers move a great deal. I've never played through the cabinets that you're playing through but I've found that most of the mid/upper line MFR's use similar designs.

As for you question as to whether the B2 amp has enough power to push the cabinets, I'd say at 4 ohms it would be border line, at 8 ohms no! You'll find that you'll get a much better sound with much more head room on your amp. When I use my SWR SM-400S with my Goliath III, I bridge it and at 500 watts RMS (8 Ohms) it sounds good. But if I use my Stewart/Alembic head at 1,150 watts RMS (8 Ohms) it sounds much better. The head room allows for much tighter defined notes.

I'd definetly go with a 4-10 8 Ohm cabinet but your next purchase should be an amp with more power to really realize the full potential of your cabinets.
 

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