Two almost identical precisions, different tone.

[Fender_Bender]

Of course it still sound like an electric guitar.
I'll bet if that cinder block was 50% styrofoam it would have sounded differently.
and it would've been lighter

Foam concrete - Wikipedia

It was also done with a piezo pickup sensing the strings solely where they contact the bridge (where excursion is virtually zero). A conventional pickup, even just duct taped into position would have been interesting to hear. It sounded rather brittle to me but I’d have to hear it in person to truly judge.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

Yes, the piezo pickups would be quite different from conventional ones.

 

[bearfoot]

I have a Tony Franklin fretted P and an ’83 USA P, which I think may not have the original body. Both have maple boards, tapewound strings and Quarter Pounders. They’re both set up identically, pick up heights are same, action is the same, and they should essentially sound the same (with the Franklin pickup selector in p position of course). But for some reason the ’83 still sounds better - it’s a bit fatter, heavier, and louder than the Franklin. The only difference between the two basses is the neck shape, and the slightly taller frets on the Franklin, and the pickups are a few years older on the ’83. The Franklin body is alder, the ’83 is possibly something else but whatever it is, it weighs a ton.

So why does the ’83 sound better? Could it be the frets? Or the slightly older pickups? Or could it be the body wood? I never thought body wood made too much of a difference on a precision but maybe it does.

I don't know, but this is an ideal situation in which to swap the pickups, if you want to determine how much differences between them are responsible, and what difference the basses are.
Or, Leave the '83 alone and experiment with different pups in the Franklin.

 

[Missing Link]

The pickup takes its' electrical info from the strings vibrating in the magnetic field, making strings and pickup the strongest direct contributors to the overall tone. BUT almost everything on the guitar can affect the sound in varying degrees. A guitar is a vibrating system. The vibrations change(adding, passing, subtracting to different frequencies) as they move back and forth around the guitar. This DOES affect the way the strings vibrate between the nut and saddles, again in varying degrees. As with most things, the longer and more you listen, the easier it is to pick up differences in sound. Most people who are not guitarists could not tell the difference in sound between a strat and a tele, a P bass and a Jazz. A guitar is a system and most anything you change on it can change the sound some. The sometimes small nuances are there if you know what to listen for. In a band mix these are not too apparent(but not always). When you play by yourself most of us can hear it. I enjoy chasing the sound I want to hear. It helps keep me off the streets and that's a good thing.
The human mind can sometimes trick us with what we expect to hear if our subconscious wants it bad enough, but this is science and fact for the most part and not wishful thinking.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Some say pj basses with the p soloed do not sound the same as a regular p bass.

Just asking but could that be because the cap’s are different? Keep in mind, you have the two volume control, one tone control like on a Jazz, and just maybe the use of the cap on the Jazz type controls for the P-style pickup may account for the difference. Just a thought. I have an American P-bass deluxe and noticed it is definitely does not sound the same as the 76 P-Bass I did a lot of studio work with.

 

[Pbassmanca]

The pickup takes its' electrical info from the strings vibrating in the magnetic field, making strings and pickup the strongest direct contributors to the overall tone. BUT almost everything on the guitar can affect the sound in varying degrees. A guitar is a vibrating system. The vibrations change(adding, passing, subtracting to different frequencies) as they move back and forth around the guitar. This DOES affect the way the strings vibrate between the nut and saddles, again in varying degrees. As with most things, the longer and more you listen, the easier it is to pick up differences in sound. Most people who are not guitarists could not tell the difference in sound between a strat and a tele, a P bass and a Jazz. A guitar is a system and most anything you change on it can change the sound some. The sometimes small nuances are there if you know what to listen for. In a band mix these are not too apparent(but not always). When you play by yourself most of us can hear it. I enjoy chasing the sound I want to hear. It helps keep me off the streets and that's a good thing.
The human mind can sometimes trick us with what we expect to hear if our subconscious wants it bad enough, but this is science and fact for the most part and not wishful thinking.

Well said @Missing Link , some excellent points made in your post. The human mind can most certainly "trick" us. I've played the same bass, through the same amp, through the same cable (in a music store) on different days and perceived variances in the general tonality of the instrument that to my ear would have made the difference between buying the particular bass or not buying it were I making the decision on that particular day! Or maybe I'm just a weirdo......

 

[stefancaunter]

My experience has been the same.
I've bought and sold some vintage instruments that were dogs.
Back in the day I had an untouched 58' burst that sounds like crap.
This was in the early 80's when they went for under $10K.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with it but it just didn't sound that good.

I have seen a bunch of 70's P & J's with ski jumps.
I own 5 (all 72 or 7 2 J's and 3 P's that are reasonably straight but none are perfect.

Interesting idea Whippet, I have not encountered this but it certainly is possible.
Next time I have some time I will check with a dial indicator and/or a vernier caliper to see how close they are.
This may be worthless info on my part though as these all sound very nice (to me).

Am I the only one leery about buying a parts guitar or bass?
I'm thinking that Fender, Lakland, etc. wouldn't let their higher end instruments go out the door if they were dogs; or, I'm completely wrong about modern QC!

yes, i checked out a 1961 precision earlier this year. it just did not sound very good. nice slab board neck too. sure, dead strings (guy was a jamerson fan) but even so, not a lot of sound when i pressed my ear on the upper horn. any fender i’ve bought has shaken my skull doing that check ... if it ain’t there it ain’t there...

 

[bigtone23]

Just asking but could that be because the cap’s are different? Keep in mind, you have the two volume control, one tone control like on a Jazz, and just maybe the use of the cap on the Jazz type controls for the P-style pickup may account for the difference. Just a thought. I have an American P-bass deluxe and noticed it is definitely does not sound the same as the 76 P-Bass I did a lot of studio work with.

If the P Deluxe is active, it won't sound like a passive P. The buffered, lower impedance of the preamp removes the loading of the cables, etc... resulting in a more open, brighter tone. Usually preamps have some sort of a tonal curve to them. Very few are flat response.
VT Ps and VVT Js are wired differently. The hot lead of a P pickup goes to an outside pin of the pot and the hot lead of J pickups go to the pot's wipers to allow independent adjustment of the volumes. This has different results in the parallel resistance seen by the pickup and the output impedance. In addition, the extra load of having another parallel 250K pot in the mix with a VVT Jazz bass has an effect on the resonant peak of the pickups and therefore the tonality.
The production model Tony Franklin is wired up like a standard P bass with the addition of a switch up front, selecting the pickup(s) to feed the volume and tone controls. This is just like a Telecaster wiring. Electronically, with the switch set to the P pickup on a TF bass, it should be loaded the same as a regular VT P bass.

 

[Bassist30]

Great to know every bass has its own character.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

If the P Deluxe is active, it won't sound like a passive P. The buffered, lower impedance of the preamp removes the loading of the cables, etc... resulting in a more open, brighter tone. Usually preamps have some sort of a tonal curve to them. Very few are flat response.
VT Ps and VVT Js are wired differently. The hot lead of a P pickup goes to an outside pin of the pot and the hot lead of J pickups go to the pot's wipers to allow independent adjustment of the volumes. This has different results in the parallel resistance seen by the pickup and the output impedance. In addition, the extra load of having another parallel 250K pot in the mix with a VVT Jazz bass has an effect on the resonant peak of the pickups and therefore the tonality.
The production model Tony Franklin is wired up like a standard P bass with the addition of a switch up front, selecting the pickup(s) to feed the volume and tone controls. This is just like a Telecaster wiring. Electronically, with the switch set to the P pickup on a TF bass, it should be loaded the same as a regular VT P bass.

For the record, it is a passive bass. Thanks for the explanation. I wonder if it is worth it to rewire. Most of the time I run both pickups wide open and the tone up all the way and rarely use just one pickup. Also, even when running just the Precision pickup, it doesn’t sound bad, it’s just not the real deal.

 

[Fender_Bender]

Well said @Missing Link , some excellent points made in your post. The human mind can most certainly "trick" us. I've played the same bass, through the same amp, through the same cable (in a music store) on different days and perceived variances in the general tonality of the instrument that to my ear would have made the difference between buying the particular bass or not buying it were I making the decision on that particular day! Or maybe I'm just a weirdo......

I have heard that living in the Shwa can turn one into a weirdo .

 

[FenderTuni]

Boy, I didn't expect the human brain would get people so riled up. If anyone who hasn't yet ignored me would like to discuss the science, I'd be happy to do so. Best PM me though; this thread's probably had enough of my nonsense.

I am very fond of psychology and your commentaries were very interesting, and yes, also 100% true. But somehow oblivious to the current topic. We may not entirely know the biological and psychological intricacies of the mind that shapes our tastes and preferences, being bound to the unconscious renders it not measurable, thus subjective like you said. And most of the people in this thread (I assume..) are trying to rely on the few "objective" parameters we have, if any, to sustain the conversation.

Back on topic, recently I added a fretless neck to my Standard MIM P-body, which left a fretted original Fender neck to spare. So I bought on eBay an old early 1990's Squier body and installed it. As expected, the sound was not as close as it was with the original body, way too dark sounding. Although nothing that couldn't be fixed with some EQ tweaks!. But if I'm honest, I'll always know that this new bass is "cheap" despite it sounds amazing after tapering the low a little bit, trying to get rid of the BIAS has been impossible.

 

[dougjwray]

Pondering this stuff is one of the most enjoyable/frustrating things about playing bass. Tone is a combination of so many factors that when I find a bass that just plain sounds the way I want it to sound, I don't change anything about it.
My latest favorite is a humble '89 Squier II Precision (made in Korea), which I bought for about $100 on ebay. It was in absolutely horrible condition, but had clearly been played A LOT. (A very good sign.) I'm sure the body is plywood (i.e. laminate). The pickups sound so good (loud, fat and punchy) that I found the "same ones" (from another Korean '89 Squier II) to see if they could liven up another P bass of mine (an SX with a wonderful neck and acoustic tone). You guessed it-- they didn't sound as good as I expected.
The Squier has "more" tone than my '71 Fender Precision, which obviously has a solid alder body, etc.
Also, the Squier is playable but not exactly spectacular in that category. Still, with me the sound comes first, and I'll happily put up with getting my chops up to handle a great-sounding yet hard-to-play bass.
Body woods, neck joint, neck mass, pots, caps, strings, pickups, bridge design, poly vs. nitro finish... maybe even the effect caused by more vibrations having passed through a played-to-death instrument (such as the Squier)... it never ends.

 

[FenderTuni]

Minus the poor compression and audio quality of this video, I think this is a good demonstration of the basic points I made.

man this video is amazing, surely it backs up your statement.

 

[FenderTuni]

Pondering this stuff is one of the most enjoyable/frustrating things about playing bass. Tone is a combination of so many factors that when I find a bass that just plain sounds the way I want it to sound, I don't change anything about it.
My latest favorite is a humble '89 Squier II Precision (made in Korea), which I bought for about $100 on ebay. It was in absolutely horrible condition, but had clearly been played A LOT. (A very good sign.) I'm sure the body is plywood (i.e. laminate). The pickups sound so good (loud, fat and punchy) that I found the "same ones" (from another Korean '89 Squier II) to see if they could liven up another P bass of mine (an SX with a wonderful neck and acoustic tone). You guessed it-- they didn't sound as good as I expected.
The Squier has "more" tone than my '71 Fender Precision, which obviously has a solid alder body, etc.
Also, the Squier is playable but not exactly spectacular in that category. Still, with me the sound comes first, and I'll happily put up with getting my chops up to handle a great-sounding yet hard-to-play bass.
Body woods, neck joint, neck mass, pots, caps, strings, pickups, bridge design, poly vs. nitro finish... maybe even the effect caused by more vibrations having passed through a played-to-death instrument (such as the Squier)... it never ends.

that precisely was my point, we can be so adamant about certain brands or specs in a bass just because of pre-existing biases. I even left the Squier neck plate (didn't replace it with a Fender one like many people do) to remind me every day of it.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

man this video is amazing, surely it backs up your statement.

Man, I can just hear the Portland cement in that block. Amazing. I do think the aggregate plays a role too but the cement is where the tone resides.

 

[FenderTuni]

Man, I can just hear the Portland cement in that block. Amazing. I do think the aggregate plays a role too but the cement is where the tone resides.

I'll get my cement P bass anytime soon

 

[Trebizond]

OK. I'll jump in the arena. I have two Fender P basses, both made in 1960. One is dated 11/60, the other is earlier in 1960. Same strings, setup, amp, etc. Both stock. They sound very different. The neck shapes are different, as is the weight.

 

[bigtone23]

For the record, it is a passive bass. Thanks for the explanation. I wonder if it is worth it to rewire. Most of the time I run both pickups wide open and the tone up all the way and rarely use just one pickup. Also, even when running just the Precision pickup, it doesn’t sound bad, it’s just not the real deal.

I tend to do the same thing: both pickups and tone at full most of the time and have thought about doing this to a P/J: wire it up with the standard P-style volume & tone controls and have a switch (or push/pull pot's switch) before the controls that turns off the bridge pickup. This way, it's always running just a 2 pot load. This would be similar to what is happening with the TF Precision, but I never find myself using the bridge PU by itself on a passive bass, so therefore a 3 way switch is moot.
G&L SB-2 P/Js are wired with just a volume for each pickup, no tone. The theory is you run the P as the primary and the bridge pickup being blended in is the tone control. Kinda interesting.

 

[Jim C]

The most frustrating test of all:
I love the sound of this bass at home
I bring the same bass and amp to rehearsal and it sounds like a$$ in the mix.

I've been using my 1960 (which sounds incredible to me) with an R&B / rock band.
We record every rehearsal with a pair of PZM's and the bass tone was great.
The strings were so dead that I took my 1972 P last night with newish strings.
I was surprised when I compared the CD from last night to the one from last week (same songs) and liked the 72' better in the mix.
Of course, it's possible I may go back when new strings go back on the 60'?