Two almost identical precisions, different tone.

[njones89]

I'm curious; did the people who said they swapped necks on their basses put them back the way they were? Did they sound as they did before the change? Mentioned a couple of posts before me, how tightly the neck screws are put in seems like it could definitely have an effect on coupling/tone.
No real world experience here, jus' wondering outloud...
MJ

There is nothing further from the truth... it wouldn't affect tone, it would affect the spacing between the pickups and strings, as well as the action (requiring more tension when fretted), and those things would affect the tone. You want to make sure the neck is firmly bolted into the pocket, but you don't want to overtighten and risk stripping the neck.

 

[project_c]

Hahaha this whole discussion is one of the biggest can of worms of all time in the bass/guitar world. Ever. I guess some people just need something to debate about. Something where no one will ever "win".

True, but it makes for an interesting discussion, lots of good opinions and thoughts in this thread.

This is interesting, as I have a Franklin fretted, and just replaced the pickguard with one from one of my Am Std P's. It was an exact match. I wanted to get rid of the 3 way switch, and just go V/V with no tone knob. Was an easy replacement, and more to my liking, being able to control the volume of each pickup. So on my Franklin there is no diff in where the P pickup is located, vs. an Am Std.

I should also mention that all the '83 P basses I've owned had the 1.75" nut width vs. the 1.625 on the Franklin. Perhaps not with the OP's, but I would expect an '83 to have a bigger neck.

Yes, 100% correct, the pickup is in the same spot as a normal p (otherwise I would also be pointing at that as the reason for the difference). And yes also to the difference in nut width, the 83 is wider and the neck is thinner from front to back.

 

[NoiseNinja]

Well, to me it's not exactly rocket science to realize that even if two basses are made of the exact same type of wood it's just impossible for them to be made of the exact same piece of wood.

That this is the reason for the phenomena you describe is an assumption though, but seems to me to be just about one of the only plausible explanations.

I guess it is also possible even with stuff made by a machine specked to spit out the exact same product that slight variations can occur.

As such small variations in how the pickups, strings as well as neck and body are shaped and put together might have an influence on it too.

 

[Frenchy-Lefty]

Don't say that OP, many on this forum have been saying that tonewoods have zero influence on t.he sound, you are going to make them mad and they'll try to convince you that you have a hearing problem.

 

[njones89]

Don't say that OP, many on this forum have been saying that tonewoods have zero influence on t.he sound, you are going to make them mad and they'll try to convince you that you have a hearing problem.

I mean, it doesn't make me mad... that's just a logical fallacy!

It's a pavlov thing... people play a really cool bass they like, not knowing jack about electronics or anything... they see the bass, the wood it is made out of... see it being advertised for the wood, and become conditioned to believe that it must be the wood. The way people organize and categorize 'tonewood' looks like pseudoscience, or astrology to me. It also contributes to the whole misconception about things like cheaper instruments that are outsourced and made out of "inferior materials". Cheaper instruments made in other countries may be of lower quality, but it is not because they are cheap... it's because of the free market and cost of labor... so in return, the instrument may or may not be of lower quality, but in most cases, it can be fixed, and to make it sound REALLY GOOD, you just add some 3rd party pickups and electronics. But the average first world citizen does not put that effort or thought into it; when they make an instrument purchase, they look to these kinds of threads for information and learn that "basswood is that crappy wood" that you should never build an instrument with, and therefore, should not purchase an instrument based solely on that. AND THAT is what I see is the problem, and THAT is what makes me mad. But feel free to believe in whatever you want to believe.

A realistic and practical analysis of amplification and electronics would lead someone to the same conclusion every time... that electronics in amplified instruments is what determines tone. It's just sad that people refuse to see the truth, but it's definitely a great excuse to go out and buy another bass. But that very excuse would crumble if somebody began to question it.. I mean, if I suddenly realized that I wasted most of my life's fortune and savings on music gear for reasons that were self-validating, I'd probably become nihilistic and lose all hope.

 

[NoiseNinja]

I mean, it doesn't make me mad... that's just a logical fallacy!

It's a pavlov thing... people play a really cool bass they like, not knowing jack about electronics or anything... they see the bass, the wood it is made out of... see it being advertised for the wood, and become conditioned to believe that it must be the wood. The way people organize and categorize 'tonewood' looks like pseudoscience, or astrology to me.

A realistic and practical analysis of amplification and electronics would lead someone to the same conclusion every time... that electronics in amplified instruments is what determines tone. It's just sad that people refuse to see the truth, but it's definitely a great excuse to go out and buy another bass. But that very excuse would crumble if somebody began to question it..

Strings produce the sound, pickups reproduce the sound of the strings vibrations, when talking typical electrical string instruments utilizing typical magnetic pickups, I think we are on the same page that far.

However you seem to forget that other parts of the bass, such as the body, the neck, the bridge, the frets e.t.c and how these are shaped as well as what kind of materials they consist of will have an indirect effect, although still not exactly being a direct part of what produce the actual sound, on how exactly the strings will vibrate in details (amount, balance and composition of overtones), how long they are able to keep vibrating (sustain) and even in some cases, when talking same type instruments but with different scale length, how much tension are put on the same type of strings tuned to same pitch (which again mainly will influences the amount, balance and composition of overtones).

In other words you seem to confuse the concept of which parts of a typical electrical string instrument are involved in the direct process of producing/reproducing the actual sound and what other parts indirectly influences and contributes to the individual instruments specific tone characteristics.

 

[warrplayer]

I have a Tony Franklin fretted P and an ’83 USA P, which I think may not have the original body. Both have maple boards, tapewound strings and Quarter Pounders. They’re both set up identically, pick up heights are same, action is the same, and they should essentially sound the same (with the Franklin pickup selector in p position of course). But for some reason the ’83 still sounds better - it’s a bit fatter, heavier, and louder than the Franklin. The only difference between the two basses is the neck shape, and the slightly taller frets on the Franklin, and the pickups are a few years older on the ’83. The Franklin body is alder, the ’83 is possibly something else but whatever it is, it weighs a ton.

So why does the ’83 sound better? Could it be the frets? Or the slightly older pickups? Or could it be the body wood? I never thought body wood made too much of a difference on a precision but maybe it does.

Just a guess.... Recorded the same way in a mix with guitar and drums I am guessing in a blind test even you would not be able to correctly identify each bass more than 50% of the time.

 

[njones89]

^^ that's all just in the strings... so if you find a good set of strings that you like and change them regularly, then you get all that. As for the bass... the wood doesn't really matter. As long as it holds the strings in place and the bass itself is easily intonated and adjusted for a musician's preferences, you're good to go!

 

[ajkula66]

It's just sad that people refuse to see the truth,

"A lie told once remains a lie, but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth."

Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945)

Your statement may or may not be true for all the instruments that you've played. Having not played any of your past and/or present basses, I can't be the judge of that.

It most certainly doesn't qualify as truth for the thousands of pieces that I've played over the past 39 years.

 

[njones89]

Nice, a reference/analogy to nazi atrocities to invalidate my points rather than refute them with sound, logical counterpoints or arguments. Followed by an appeal to subjectivity... like I said, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. I only take issue when things like tonewood contribute to industrial level problems that take advantage of people's naivety on the subjects..

 

[Aberdumbie]

I'm curious; did the people who said they swapped necks on their basses put them back the way they were? Did they sound as they did before the change? Mentioned a couple of posts before me, how tightly the neck screws are put in seems like it could definitely have an effect on coupling/tone.
No real world experience here, jus' wondering outloud...
MJ

I can tell you this.... Two weeks ago the weather changed and I figured I better check the screws on my neck.... Which happened to be frightfully loose.... After I clamped and properly tightened them I did experience quite a nice shift in the brightness of my tone. I suppose I hadn't noticed it had been slowly fading to a denser, less crisp tone. Was like plugging in a new bass.

 

[NoiseNinja]

Nice, a reference/analogy to nazi atrocities to invalidate my points rather than refute them with sound, logical counterpoints or arguments. Followed by an appeal to subjectivity... like I said, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. I only take issue when things like tonewood contribute to industrial level problems that take advantage of people's naivety on the subjects..

Did you actually bother reading my comment on your post, that points out why it seems that you draw the wrong conclusions too quickly based on you apparently misunderstanding or confusing the concepts of what directly produce/reproduce the actual sound and what other factors indirectly contributes to the actual tone of an electrical instrument and how that works in practice?

Here is the link to that specific post:
Two almost identical precisions, different tone.

 

[njones89]

Strings produce the sound, pickups reproduce the sound of the strings vibrations, when talking typical electrical string instruments utilizing typical magnetic pickups, I think we are on the same page that far.

However you seem to forget that other parts of the bass, such as the body, the neck, the bridge, the frets e.t.c and how these are shaped as well as what kind of materials they consist of will have an indirect effect, although still not exactly being a direct part of what produce the actual sound, on how exactly the strings will vibrate in details (amount, balance and composition of overtones), how long they are able to keep vibrating (sustain) and even in some cases, when talking same type instruments but with different scale length, how much tension are put on the same type of strings tuned to same pitch (which again mainly will influence the amount, balance and composition of overtones).

In other words you seem to confuse the concept of which parts of a typical electrical string instrument are involved in the direct process of producing/reproducing the actual sound and what other parts indirectly influences and contributes to the individual instruments specific tone characteristics.

I can see you have edited the original post, so I decided to reply again.

Indirect is a keyword in what you have written. If you don't have a bridge, you can't really make adjustments for intonation and things... otherwise, you might have the strings going through the body without any bridge for "more sustain". You might as well build a bass out of a solid piece of granite, complete with carved bridge... but that's impractical. Hardware is only used to make adjustments to compensate for the strings.. If you could tune a bass or add tension without tuners, you'd remove those too, if sustain was that relevant to tone. Nuts are easily replaceable and hold strings in place. Necks (used to be) bolt on so you can swap them out instead of paying for fret work. Bridges and nuts having direct contact with the intended vibrating portion of the strings, dependent on the material used MAY (but usually do not) have a dampening effect on the string, but it's the string that vibrates, and it's the string that interacts with the pickups to produce noise. The same is true for frets... without frets, the strings are dampened by the wood and your finger. The rest of the bass is irrelevant in the production of amplified sound. Yes, the resonance of the bass may counteract with the vibration of the strings, but this is minimal at best. In the grand scheme of things, this does not matter... you have ambient noise, microwaves, x-rays, radiation, and other things, all which are part of the environment, also interacting with your vibrating strings.

Scale length DEFINITELY DOES MATTER and I did not rule that out in the above posts. It matters just as much as having hardware to adjust and compensate for variation between strings. Large scale length also allows strings to have more timbre, and can be important when it comes to bass, but irrelevant when it comes to things such as what materials the bass is made from. I feel that this is a strawman argument to attempt to invalidate the points I made.

When it comes to amplifying soundwaves, the only thing that is amplified is the vibration of the strings because they are metal. This disturbs the magnetic field produced by the pickup(s), and the disturbance is amplified and transduced into soundwaves. The resonance of the bass or the acoustic sound of the bass (and the wood it's made from) is largely irrelevant in terms of electric bass because it doesn't carry over to the amplified sound. The unamplified acoustic sound may have some magical tonewood quality to it, but those qualities for reasons stated above are not transduced. I suppose if you wanted to hear those magical qualities, you could place a microphone in front of the imaginary soundhole.

 

[NoiseNinja]

I can see you have edited the original post, so I decided to reply again.

Indirect is a keyword in what you have written. If you don't have a bridge, you can't really make adjustments for intonation and things... otherwise, you might have the strings going through the body without any bridge for "more sustain". You might as well build a bass out of a solid piece of granite, with carved bridge... but that's impractical. Hardware is only used to make adjustments to compensate for the strings.. If you could tune a bass or add tension without tuners, you'd remove those too, if sustain was that relevant to tone. Bridges and nuts having direct contact with the intended vibrating portion of the strings, dependent on the material used may have a dampening effect on the string, but it's the string that vibrates, and it's the string that interacts with the pickups to produce noise. The same is true for frets... without frets, the strings are dampened by the wood and your finger. The rest of the bass is irrelevant in the production of amplified sound. Yes, the resonance of the bass may counteract with the vibration of the strings, but this is minimal at best. In the grand scheme of things, this does not matter... you have ambient noise, microwaves, x-rays, radiation, and other things, all which are part of the environment, also interacting with your vibrating strings.

Scale length DEFINITELY DOES MATTER and I did not rule that out in the above posts. It matters just as much as having hardware to adjust and compensate for variation between strings. I feel that this is a strawman argument to attempt to invalidate the points I made.

When it comes to amplifying soundwaves, the only thing that is amplified is the vibration of the strings because they are metal. This disturbs the magnetic field produced by the pickup(s), and the disturbance is amplified and transduced into soundwaves. The resonance of the bass or the acoustic sound of the bass (and the wood it's made from) is largely irrelevant in terms of electric bass because it doesn't carry over to the amplified sound.

Sorry, but either you don't understand my points or you are simply choosing to completely ignore them.

Actually all what you just said is just an elaboration of what you said earlier, seemingly as an attempt to strengthen your own opinion and make it seem more valid, not really arguments that take my points into consideration and attempts to counteracts them, but one:

Yes, the resonance of the bass may counteract with the vibration of the strings, but this is minimal at best. In the grand scheme of things, this does not matter... you have ambient noise, microwaves, x-rays, radiation, and other things, all which are part of the environment, also interacting with your vibrating strings.

And all I can say to that really is:

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man!

I'd still dare to say that the materials used for and shapes of the individual parts of the bass has a significant influence on how the strings vibrate, and a lot more so than external influences from "ambient noise, microwaves, x-rays, radiation, and other things", as you formulated it.

 

[njones89]

Sorry, but either you don't understand my points or you are simply choosing to completely ignore them.

Actually all what you just said is just an elaboration of what you said earlier, seemingly as an attempt to strengthen your own opinion and make it seem more valid, not really arguments that take my points into consideration and attempts to counteracts them, but one:



And all I can say to that really is:

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man!

I'd still dare to say that the materials used for and shapes of the individual parts of the bass has a significant influence on how the strings vibrates, and a lot more so than external influences from "ambient noise, microwaves, x-rays, radiation, and other things", as you formulate it.

I have addressed all of your points. And I'm sorry, but there is no opinion about what I have stated. This is factual knowledge we're dealing with here. It's perfectly fine if you want to ignore all that and choose to believe in magical tonewood properties, which again is perfectly fine by me. I think that idea is on its way out, though. The "tone of the gaps" logic...

 

[NoiseNinja]

I have addressed all of your points. And I'm sorry, but there is no opinion about what I have stated. This is factual knowledge we're dealing with here. It's perfectly fine if you want to ignore all that and choose to believe in magical tonewood properties, which again is perfectly fine by me. I think that idea is on its way out, though. The "tone of the gaps" logic...

I think you should just go and play your plywood stick with strings and pickups then, and see how that works out for you, cause you are clearly incapable of understanding the meaning of what I actually wrote.

 

[njones89]

I think you should just go and play your plywood stick with strings and pickups then, and see how that works out for you, cause you are clearly incapable of understanding the meaning of what I actually wrote.

Minus the poor compression and audio quality of this video, I think this is a good demonstration of the basic points I made.

 

[Fender_Bender]

I think you should just go and play your plywood stick with strings and pickups then, and see how that works out for you, cause you are clearly incapable of understanding the meaning of what I actually wrote.

Don’t bother. Sounds like he is one of the enlightened ones who knows ALL the answers.

 

[njones89]

Ya gotta love how all I want to do is assert a seemingly logical idea for the benefit of those who are uninformed consumers, and people who think this is insufferable due to their own personal views and experiences (that I don't really care about or am concerned about) resort to personal attacks and undermining my posts through employing various logical fallacies and other tactics. To OP: I am sorry I have oversaturated the thread with my posts...

 

[Missing Link]

SHEESHHH guys! Could you PLEASE comment without the personal digs at each other? I'm a recent Talkbass addition and have up to now and been impressed with the level of civility here. It has made Talkbass a pleasant place for me to exchange knowledge and opinions. EVERYBODY has an opinion, especially we bass players (being some of the most intelligent people on Earth - we chose the bass as our instrument, didn't we?). So PLEASE respect each other AND the rest of us who use this website. Debate don't denigrate.