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Watching these , "My cab is better than your cab..." threads has caused me to purchase and then resell over 20 different cabs in the last four years....and no mater what one i have it still sounds like me at the gig and I go to a club a couple of blocks away and some old geezer playing a vintage polytone blows the doors off the place....it ain't about the cab....
Yes, we know that your acoustic sound is in your hands and much of that transfers to your amplified sound. We know that fine players still sound like themselves regardless of the basses they're playing. That's not to say that the instrument doesn't make a difference. When amplified, it's very much about the cab. I view all amplification as a necessary evil. Different cabs and different pickups influence to a great extent how close one can come to the holy grail of "my bass, but bigger." Across the different combinations of equipment I've used (and there haven't been all that many), I've noticed quite substantial differences in the tonal quality of the sound, despite the playing always sounding like me (for better or for worse). For a given player, the cab can make an enormous difference. It ain't all about the cab, but it's very much about it, IMO. After all, the cab and its interactions with the room are the tonal filter through which you play and determine very much what is your "voice." As I see it (hear it), one's amplified sound is determined by a number of factors, four highly influential ones being the player, the bass, the pickup, and the cab.
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On the other hand, the systems in my living room for music reproduction have usable response down to 12 Hz.
And that's why every time you crank up your stereo the seismic monitors in California detect another earthquake!
Saw this come up over on the BG side... 210 with an addition rear-firing 110.. marketed towards acoustic instruments and DB...View attachment 728966[/QUOTE]
Jimmy,
Well, I played through a couple of those amps, when they first arrived on the market, and compared to either of my GK 200MB's they just didn't sound nearly as good. With my bass and the Underwood pickup
the midrange on the Polytone wasn't nearly as pretty as the GK. I also used a Walter Woods MI-100-8 back then, but we really can't count that one, because you could buy 2 Polytones for the price
of one of Walter's heads alone. I have a close frend, Steve Schenkle, who plays Guitar and loves his, he still takes it out on gigs. I do know that Robgrow, recently replaced the power amp in one, with a B&O Ice
power amp and had great results. Since Polytone just kind of folded, getting one repaired has become difficult. Just my take though. I also had a Roland Cube 60 for bass, not the greatest, but it worked, loved the
orange cover.
Ric
Jimmy,
Well, I played through a couple of those amps, when they first arrived on the market, and compared to either of my GK 200MB's they just didn't sound nearly as good. With my bass and the Underwood pickup
the midrange on the Polytone wasn't nearly as pretty as the GK. I also used a Walter Woods MI-100-8 back then, but we really can't count that one, because you could buy 2 Polytones for the price
of one of Walter's heads alone. I have a close frend, Steve Schenkle, who plays Guitar and loves his, he still takes it out on gigs. I do know that Robgrow, recently replaced the power amp in one, with a B&O Ice
power amp and had great results. Since Polytone just kind of folded, getting one repaired has become difficult. Just my take though. I also had a Roland Cube 60 for bass, not the greatest, but it worked, loved the
orange cover.
Ric
Don't know if I can totally agree with this...I had a MiniBrute lV in the 70's that sounded pretty good but broke down on me too many times. That being said, The Jazz Showcase in Chicago has a Polytone house amp that I really am enjoying using. And, I've been pairing it with an Underwood! It sounds good enough for me to leave my Doubler and MAS 45 at home when I play there!!! Don't know the model, but it is two channel with a 15 and two tweeters. LOL!
This may be an example of how influential the effects of cab-room interactions can be.
This may be an example of how influential the effects of cab-room interactions can be.
Funny, I played there this week and brought an EA CXL112 and the Doubler and didn't enjoy it as much as the Polytone. I was placed in a different location on stage than I usually play, so maybe...then again, maybe I just dig that 70's sound!
I also have a EA CXL112, and I generally don't care for it with my DB (Christopher Hybrid, Gamuts and Spiros, Full Circle, EA Micro). I have to cut most of the mids and highs to get a decent tone.
My experience is the same with that cab. I bet you'd like a 210av with that setup.
Interesting, in that the earlier Euphonic Audio VL series the D'Appolito array, placed the Midrange driver above the Tweeter, in a three way configuration with the Bass driver adjacent to the other speakers. To my ears, the midrange is more ballanced and blends with the low and hi frequencies. I've only played the 210 AV once with a in store at Guitar Center.
Ric
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Just a note about transient response: For mainstream speakers (e.g., sealed and ported reflex boxes), frequency and transient response are joined at the hip. Two speakers with the same frequency response must also have the same transient response. I think that a reasonable rule of thumb is that a speaker with faster response will also have less low frequency extension. I don't know for sure if this rule also applies to systems such as transmission lines.
What turns this into a puzzle is that there's no good way of deciding if an audible difference between speakers is caused by frequency or transient response, if the two things can't be controlled separately. There is also the interaction between low frequency extension and room acoustics. And I'm unaware of any research data on audible thresholds for time effects at low frequencies. For a ported speaker, we're talking 10 or 20 milliseconds.
For these reasons, I'd be cautious about interpreting any audible effect of a bass speaker design as a time or transient response effect.
What turns this into a puzzle is that there's no good way of deciding if an audible difference between speakers is caused by frequency or transient response, if the two things can't be controlled separately. There is also the interaction between low frequency extension and room acoustics. And I'm unaware of any research data on audible thresholds for time effects at low frequencies. For a ported speaker, we're talking 10 or 20 milliseconds.
For these reasons, I'd be cautious about interpreting any audible effect of a bass speaker design as a time or transient response effect.
I believe that two devices can have the same long-term frequency response (power spectrum) but different transient responses if their phase-spectra differ. Think of Invalid Link Removed, for example.
Those responses could be measured and even manipulated in the laboratory and judgments could be explained on their bases. Outside the laboratory, it's almost impossible to tell.
If you mean thresholds for time-alignment differences in transient responses, you'll likely find those in the IEEE journal.
Yup!
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Yes, two devices in general, but not two passive reflex speakers. I remember there's a rule (named after somebody) for what kinds of filters can have independent frequency and phase response curves, but for the life of me I can't remember it. I was only able to prove the specific case but not the general rule.
Of course we'd need an all-tube all-pass filter. If only we know someone who had one of those.
It would be interesting to know what research has been done along those lines, for low frequency signals. In the passband, sealed and ported systems revert to identical phase response curves.
Thanks for the clarification. If I understand correctly then, what it comes down to is a strong case of time-domain, frequency-domain duality across devices. I'm not sure what low-frequency temporal thresholds you're looking for. Perhaps we can figure it out via PM. That leads to the issue of whether human performance in the relevant conditions is better characterized as operations on the temporal waveform or its spectrum. That can sure be tricky. It took me a second to realize that you remembered the tube-based, broadband phase-shifter. I still have one! I had to discard the others in a recent move.Yes, two devices in general, but not two passive reflex speakers. I remember there's a rule (named after somebody) for what kinds of filters can have independent frequency and phase response curves, but for the life of me I can't remember it. I was only able to prove the specific case but not the general rule.
Of course we'd need an all-tube all-pass filter. If only we know someone who had one of those.
It would be interesting to know what research has been done along those lines, for low frequency signals. In the passband, sealed and ported systems revert to identical phase response curves.
I love 'listening' to you guys talking so far above my head that it's like stargazing.
