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...and that's smart! The fact that you see arguments on both sides is, IMO, a reflection of the fact that many don't really understand well what's behind it all.
+1 And there you are. While I've only had a couple of different amps, but I've had a boatload of different cabinets. Currently, I have several I'd love to be rid of. One thing for sure, bass cabs have gotten smaller, lighter, and better sounding. I love my B-15N(C)
but it's pretty heavy. I'd rather carry around the Audiokenisis Thunderchild TC 112 or a QSC K8. The TC-112, is for the hi fi concerts while the QSC K8 is for small gigs where sonic purity isn't an issue.
Ric
The Bose system seemed pretty sci fi when it first came out. Right now I'm enjoying sealed cabinets. Bergantino NV115, Ampeg 210av, meat and potatoes cabs. Those and an AER Amp One (not a sealed cab) that I'm just getting the hang of after working with it all year. Touchy little beast it is. Wish I'd bought a EA Doubler. maybe next year. I'd love a sealed cab with 5" or 6" drivers, if it had bottom end extension. I guess that's where the Voodoo steps in. If it isn't a spoof, the Phil Jones with the 2" drivers and a passive radiator will be interesting.
As Les had stated, the problem with sealed boxes is that there are compromises. Enclosure size , low frequency extension,and overall efficiency. You can get a sealed box to go low. But you sacrifice efficiency and have to get big. That's the advantage of reflex designs. Smaller enclosure size, better extension and higher efficiency. But a stopped G on your E string will be continuing on until next Tuesday. Maybe Monday. I disagree wholeheartedly with Les about that. I HAVE listened to woofers---low passed at reasonably low xover points. Go ahead and walk quarter notes up and down the first 6 notes of your bass. To me, the reflex cabs sound like you're playing with a bow. And unlike certain others, I play DB live all the time.If it ain't thumpin' I can't use it.
The great speaker designer John Dunleavy said to me---"I've never heard anything coming out of a port that I want to be hearing in my music". Me too.
The great speaker designer John Dunleavy said to me---"I've never heard anything coming out of a port that I want to be hearing in my music". Me too.
I had a pair of Bose 802's powered by a Walter Woods MI-400-8 (400 watts @ 8 ohms) sounded just passible even in 1993. The EA doubler is a well thought out Double Bass and Electric I just wish it was a little more powerful.
Ric
Your MAS45 isn't a sealed cab, and it sounds great. If it's not ported or reflex, what is it (in not-too-technical terms, please)?
Mike-- I think you have misunderstood what I said. Indeed, any woofer low-passed will not be able to stop quickly. That goes for a woofer in a sealed box, in a reflex enclosure, or any other cabinet design you wish to cite. If the only spectral components are low frequencies, then there is no "stopping quickly." In order to stop quickly, higher frequency components must be present. It is a principle of the time-domain, frequency domain duality. That said, reflex cabinets, by their nature, have resonances and if the total system is not designed well, then there will be ringing. For example, the high-frequency components can be present but if they are phase-shifted or otherwise not well "time-aligned," then transient response will suffer. The problem, as I understand it, is often the time alignment between the port output and the direct output from the woofer including issues with group delay. Yes, I agree that transient response will tend to be poorer with a simple reflex design but it isn't so much about the woofer's inability to stop as it is about the total system response (sum of woofer output, port output, and any other drivers) not stopping. While that's true, it's simply not true that reflex systems must perform in the very poor manner you describe. I have no doubt that many do and I trust your report of what you heard from the ones to which you referred. As for what John Dunleavy is reported to have said, that's quite misleading. Of course, one wouldn't find the output of the port, itself, to be very "musical." As longs as it's a design that isn't susceptible to "port chuffing," then what has to be considered is the total response of the system. Anyone listening to the subwoofer in, for example, a 5.1 surround system, will recognize quickly the folly of listening to a band-limited component of a total system. Now, it's true that simple reflex systems have been surpassed by clever twists on the theme and by approaches that are far from what would be considered extensions of reflex systems. No argument there at all. Still, it's the generalization to all reflex designs and, especially their modern offshoots, that I find somewhat unjustified.
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Ok---the MVW design is (drum roll please) A frequency independent virtual transmission line. Meaning that it's not tuned to a specific frequency (like a relfex, transmission line or labyrinth). It functions like a long labyrinth which is why we can measure the frequencies all the way down coming out of the port area. What comes out of the port is all the way down up to 4khz. Control like a sealed box---extension to rival reflex.
To me it is not surpricing that a sealed box sounds tighter, and in that way more dynamic than a ported one. It has also been my subjective experience. Even if it is not required to stop quickly in those frequencies, it stopping even slower can never help imo.
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
That is true, but I have to put in a good word for my boys and girls at Ampeg...they have a small sealed cab that goes extremely low for a sealed cab...PF115he. It's the size of a regular B-15 cab. I think they probably use a speaker with more Xmax to accomplish it, but it has a -10db point of 35hz and sounds like it. Is not quite as efficient as a B-15 cab, but 99.5 db isn't bad.
Sorry...I know it's a 2-week old post...but before today, I didn't notice the opportunity you left me for a product plug that sounds natural to the conversation
Wouldn't it sound better unfolded? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
That is true, but I have to put in a good word for my boys and girls at Ampeg...they have a small sealed cab that goes extremely low for a sealed cab...PF115he. It's the size of a regular B-15 cab. I think they probably use a speaker with more Xmax to accomplish it, but it has a -10db point of 35hz and sounds like it. Is not quite as efficient as a B-15 cab, but 99.5 db isn't bad.
Sorry...I know it's a 2-week old post...but before today, I didn't notice the opportunity you left me for a product plug that sounds natural to the conversation
Wouldn't it sound better unfolded? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Jimmy,
I've looked at specs for the PF 115 HE
At 45 lbs. it's a little heavy for my tastes.
I like to keep my cabinets at or below 30. lbs. Just my take.
Ric
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-10 dB at 35 Hz? Hmmm.... a high-pass filter.That is true, but I have to put in a good word for my boys and girls at Ampeg...they have a small sealed cab that goes extremely low for a sealed cab...PF115he. It's the size of a regular B-15 cab. I think they probably use a speaker with more Xmax to accomplish it, but it has a -10db point of 35hz and sounds like it. Is not quite as efficient as a B-15 cab, but 99.5 db isn't bad.
Sorry...I know it's a 2-week old post...but before today, I didn't notice the opportunity you left me for a product plug that sounds natural to the conversation
Wouldn't it sound better unfolded? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Note that the sealed PF115HE is rated at 99.5 dB SPL @ 1w/1m with a response of 50 Hz - 17 kHz. The PF115LE is ported so that, according to Ampeg, it is one of their cabs that "hits hard and low." The specs for that one are 99.5 dB SPL @ 1w/1m with a response of 57 Hz - 3.7 kHz. As is typical for the industry, no tolerances are given (e.g., +/- 1 dB) and the range is not specified as the 3-dB down points. Be that as it may, one would hope that whatever method they're using is, at least, consistent across cabs. Taking the specs at face value, the sealed cab has the same overall efficiency as the ported cab and its response extends lower than the ported cab. 
The ported cab, then, doesn't hit as hard or as low as the sealed one. Something seems amiss then if, as implied, the ported cabs are designed to have greater low-end response.
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You kids today with your hip hop music and exploding car trunks-10 dB at 35 Hz? Hmmm.... a high-pass filter.
I do not know why Ampeg does this, but they list the -3db point of the PF115lf as the low on the website, but they do give you the -10db point in the manual, and that is 32 hz. So it really does hit harder in the lows than the PF115he, which hits too hard for me. Used to have a couple, and I greatly prefer low end more like the 810e, even on upright. To me it actually sounds more like an upright acoustically to have some rolled off low end. But that's me...I get the attraction to the deep lows, but it's not for me when I'm playing old swing and rockabilly tunes.Note that the sealed PF115HE is rated at 99.5 dB SPL @ 1w/1m with a response of 50 Hz - 17 kHz. The PF115LE is ported so that, according to Ampeg, it is one of their cabs that "hits hard and low." The specs for that one are 99.5 dB SPL @ 1w/1m with a response of 57 Hz - 3.7 kHz. As is typical for the industry, no tolerances are given (e.g., +/- 1 dB) and the range is not specified as the 3-dB down points. Be that as it may, one would hope that whatever method they're using is, at least, consistent across cabs. Taking the specs at face value, the sealed cab has the same overall efficiency as the ported cab and its response extends lower than the ported cab.
You kids today with your hip hop music and exploding car trunks
I do not know why Ampeg does this, but they list the -3db point of the PF115lf as the low on the website, but they do give you the -10db point in the manual, and that is 32 hz. So it really does hit harder in the lows than the PF115he, which hits too hard for me. Used to have a couple, and I greatly prefer low end more like the 810e, even on upright. To me it actually sounds more like an upright acoustically to have some rolled off low end. But that's me...I get the attraction to the deep lows, but it's not for me when I'm playing old swing and rockabilly tunes.
It's traditional to quote the 3-dB down, "half-power" points. The 10-dB down points are what even Ampeg considers the lowest "usable" frequency.
Here's what's in the manuals:
PF115HE: -3 dB @ 50 Hz; -10 dB @ 35 Hz
PF115LF: -3 dB @ 57 Hz; -10 dB @ 32 Hz
The HE falls 7 dB in 15 Hz, the LF falls 7 dB in 25 dB. The latter has a shallower slope. In the end though, they are both down 10 dB at nearly the same frequency. Neither has stellar low-frequency performance but it seems that's not what you're after-- perhaps with good reason. As I've pointed out before, the DB doesn't have all that much energy down there. The fundamental of the open E is 41 Hz but it's the second harmonic that is dominant on the DB. In the case of the open E, that's 82 Hz. That could also be taken as an argument to preserve the very low end in order to reproduce well the fundamentals of the lowest notes. As a player, I have to admit that, when playing acoustically, I do appreciate the feel of the fundamental of the low E and I miss it on any bass that doesn't really support it. It's true that the impulses of percussive attacks can have some very low-frequency components, but those are not radiated acoustically from the DB with any appreciable power.
Wow, are you playing out of Meyer subs?
That always seems to be a pretty good amount of low end energy down there to me when I play through them. But yeah, I'm after a higher tuning for sure. Oh well, at least there are rigs out there that both of us can find satisfying.
My little Ampeg 210AV for $300 still amazes me, regardless of the reasons why it shouldn't sound good, it does! It's cheap, light and just about the perfect shape for a tiny little stage space.
I think I gave a reasonable explanation about why one might not need as much low end as one might think for amplifying tghe DB. On the other hand, the systems in my living room for music reproduction have usable response down to 12 Hz.Wow, are you playing out of Meyer subs?
