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Unconstitutional A.A.

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No. I had no friend that has anything to do with this. It was a random thought.

Let me guess: You think you know everything in which you think you have the right to say anything.

Like I said, dude. It was a thought open for debate. If you don't like it, than don't post. I'm sorry it was so tragic for you to come across this thread.

Very well. Your random thought was misinformed.

I don't understand your second sentence; could you try re-posting in English?

It wasn't tragic. I just tried to fill in some of the gaps in your knowledge with facts. Sorry if you don't like the direction this debate has taken. Please, continue on with a factless discussion based on wild speculation and hearsay.

Also, 'then' =/= 'than'
 
I see court appointed rehab as unconstitutional. fining the individual, thats ok with me. But forcing you to go to meetings to change yourself is over the line in my book.

It is not the religious aspect, but the fact that another individual or group of individuals has the right to force you to go.

Obviously DUI, OUI, etc.. are serious charges, so yes this does deserve repercussions. However I think this should be in the for of losing you license or something more appropriate and directly linked to you infraction.

The infraction is driving drunk, not being drunk.
 
I see court appointed rehab as unconstitutional. fining the individual, thats ok with me. But forcing you to go to meetings to change yourself is over the line in my book.

So, if an individual had a history of DUI's and just killed an innocent child, you would disagree with court ordered treatment that could possibly prevent this behavior in the future?
 
1. "Higher Power" doesn't have to be religious, it doesn't have to be God or a god. Finding a higher power that works for you is usually something you work out for yourself, and nobody in AA will tell you you are wrong.

2. Judges cannot "force" AA attendance. They will offer AA as a condition of probation; but you can always choose to just do the jail time. I have known of a few people who decided they'd rather sit in jail for a month than go to AA. Hardcore, to be sure!

3. Yeah, they do like to do group prayer in AA, you don't have to say the prayer, it is optional. But really, it doesn't hurt!
 
So, if an individual had a history of DUI's and just killed an innocent child, you would disagree with court ordered treatment?

That depends of you definition of treatment. In fact you example is exactly why I don't think AA works unless you go voluntarily. I have a problem with the fact that our system allows for the possibility of multiple DUI's. he should have lost his/her license the first time, there should have been no room for "multiple dui's". Court ordered treatment should be jail time...a long time.

This person had multiple DUI's then obviously the treatment they were ordered to undergo the first few times obviously didn't work.
 
This person had multiple DUI's then obviously the treatment they were ordered to undergo the first few times obviously didn't work.

You assume this. I personally know a person who just got her 3rd in 7 years. She NOW has been ordered treatment.

People who have their licenses taken away still drive. They are sick. Treatment has been proven to work in many cases. In cases where they have multiple DUI's AND kill someone, I would take away their vehicle also.

"Treatment outcomes for alcoholism compare favorably with outcomes for many other chronic medical conditions. The longer an individual abstains from alcohol, the more likely they are to remain sober. Ongoing support from mental health professionals, family members and others are extremely significant to recovery. It is important to remember that many people relapse once or even several times before achieving long-term sobriety. Relapses are common and do not mean that a person has failed or cannot eventually recover from alcoholism. If a relapse occurs, it is crucial to once again stop drinking and to get whatever professional help is needed to continue abstaining from alcohol."

Invalid Link Removed
 
A.A. is founded on religious beliefs.
I've read the books and no one can convince me otherwise...

I went there voluntarily and was turned off by the preaching that goes on. I'd rather drink than listen to them talk about their "higher power." All the meetings I went to also ended in prayer.

No offense to anyone intended. Peace
 
DreadRaver said:
3. Yeah, they do like to do group prayer in AA, you don't have to say the prayer, it is optional. But really, it doesn't hurt!

The problem is that an atheist isn't necessarily comfortable in a situation where prayer is an accepted and possibly expected part of treatment...

Just like a religious person wouldn't feel comfortable in a situation where god is being called into question.

It's a matter of comfort more than (or then, not sure, lol) anything else.

Cool thread, hope it stays open.
 
I see court appointed rehab as unconstitutional. fining the individual, thats ok with me. But forcing you to go to meetings to change yourself is over the line in my book.

AA is not a rehab facility. It is a group that meets in order to keep their alcoholism in check. As a court usually orders someone to go to AA meetings after an alcohol related offense, I presume the idea is to educate the offender on the dangers of alcohol through anecdotal accounts.

You can not believe in higher power, be it what ever you want, and be an atheist, unless I'm missing something here.

Yes, you are missing something.
 
The problem is that an atheist isn't necessarily comfortable in a situation where prayer is an accepted and possibly expected part of treatment...

The thing is, AA isnt "treatment". Its more akin to a bunch of people saying "Dont do this, this is bad, and here is why" than it is a treatment facility where they try and get to the psychological reasons a person turns to drinking, IMO.
 
You assume this. I personally know a person who just got her 3rd in 7 years. She NOW has been ordered treatment.

People who have their licenses taken away still drive. They are sick. Treatment has been proven to work in many cases. In cases where they have multiple DUI's AND kill someone, I would take away their vehicle also.

I don't think you "friends" situation is the norm, perhaps someone who has personal experience with DUI's can chime in.

and my point of taking their licenses away still stands. Their choice to still drive means they choose to break laws, in which case the deserve to be punished.

This could be solved by enforcing considerably higher financial penalties. the possibility of bankruptcy holds a lot more sway than than the alternative
 
AA is not a rehab facility. It is a group that meets in order to keep their alcoholism in check. As a court usually orders someone to go to AA meetings after an alcohol related offense, I presume the idea is to educate the offender on the dangers of alcohol through anecdotal accounts



I did not literally mean rehab facility by using the word rehab, perhaps rehabilitative treatment would have been better. I understand what AA is and have had multiple friends go through the process.

From the perspective of the individual, it is BS...unless of course you have chosen to buy in.
 
I don't think you "friends" situation is the norm, perhaps someone who has personal experience with DUI's can chime in.

I have no personal experience, but it's not uncommon to hear of people busted for numberous DUIs, driving without a license, etc. Not sure what's going on exactly, but I live in a city with a bit of a DUI problem with some serious fatalities from multiple offenders.
 
AA was originally founded as a religious program, but it has been adapted to non-religious contexts. The "higher power," as others have noted, does not need to be God, although that had been the original intent. The court certainly can order someone convicted of DUI or other alcohol-related offenses to attend AA but it cannot require that they do so at a religious AA.

When I saw the word "appoint" in the title, I thought that the OP meant could a court mandate that an AA group accept an atheist as its leader or coordinator or whatever the title is. I have no idea why they would do so, but this is the kind of thing that has always been wrangled over in courts; it's a question of the balance between the atheist's right not to be discriminated against for his religion, vs. a religious organization's right to free exercise which would presumably mean they can favor hiring people who will exercise the same religion as the organization.

Not that I'm a mod, but I don't see any reason for fearing the mods would close this thread; we are not discussing religion per se, but the legalities of a hypothetical situation where religion comes into play. As long as people can keep comments on this topic and not go flaming off about how religion or atheism or whatever are horrible things that ought to be outlawed or something, I think it's a fair question for the forum.
 
I have no personal experience, but it's not uncommon to hear of people busted for numberous DUIs, driving without a license, etc. Not sure what's going on exactly, but I live in a city with a bit of a DUI problem with some serious fatalities from multiple offenders.

He needs only to do a Google check at the stats. It is out of control and there are many that claim "unconstitutional" when it comes down to penalties and treatments. And this is just part of the problem.

I for one think it's unconstitutional to take another persons life by driving drunk.


Then there is always this. http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...ide-for-crossing-the-street/question-1999039/

There is a thread here on TB about this woman and the multiple offending drunk that killed her child. He got six months BTY.
 
IDK, it hasn't gotten too horribly political or ooogly, but things can always change.

I think there'd need to be alternatives for AA for it to truly be unconstitutional. I suspect that courts go with AA because it's not going to cost them dearly like rehab facilities. Cost isn't a total endpoint, but even the expensive rehab facilities have a somewhat high rate of failure.
 
Addendum: If you "friend" is having legal problems because of his drinking then perhaps this friend has a drinking problem.
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