Unconstitutional A.A.

[Southpaw5]

I have no personal experience, but it's not uncommon to hear of people busted for numberous DUIs, driving without a license, etc. Not sure what's going on exactly, but I live in a city with a bit of a DUI problem with some serious fatalities from multiple offenders.

I don't disagree that it happens regularly, I know it does, its on the news every week. That doesn't mean the majority of offenders do this.

The fact that any do is why I feel like there should be more stringent penalties. People understand financial loss directly, even if they're too blitzed to comprehend that their driving puts others lives at risk. I actually wouldn't want to set a specific dollar amount, 50K to one person may be the end of the world, when to another its pocket change. so the wealthy businessman could receive a substantially higher fine so that the impact is felt.

 

[PSPookie]

I do not think that words means what you think it means.

 

[Quickie]

The fact that any do is why I feel like there should be more stringent penalties. People understand financial loss directly, even if they're too blitzed to comprehend that their driving puts others lives at risk. I actually wouldn't want to set a specific dollar amount, 50K to one person may be the end of the world, when to another its pocket change. so the wealthy businessman could receive a substantially higher fine so that the impact is felt.

It's a disease. Do you understand? People need treatment.

 

[spade2you]

I actually wouldn't want to set a specific dollar amount, 50K to one person may be the end of the world, when to another its pocket change. so the wealthy businessman could receive a substantially higher fine so that the impact is felt.

Now THAT would be unconstitutional.

 

[L-A]

The problem is that an atheist isn't necessarily comfortable in a situation where prayer is an accepted and possibly expected part of treatment...

Just like a religious person wouldn't feel comfortable in a situation where god is being called into question.

It's a matter of comfort more than (or then, not sure, lol) anything else.

Cool thread, hope it stays open.

The way I see it, court-imposed AA meetings aren't exactly about staying comfortable with your all choices.

However! One could argue that associating religion and soberness could make the criminal's distanciation with one translate to the other, make him or her think of them as two characteristics of a group he (she)'s not part of. And it's a valid point too.

 

[PSPookie]

The problem is that an atheist isn't necessarily comfortable in a situation where prayer is an accepted and possibly expected part of treatment...

Just like a religious person wouldn't feel comfortable in a situation where god is being called into question.

It's a matter of comfort more than (or then, not sure, lol) anything else.

Cool thread, hope it stays open.

If I'm uncomfortable because the guy next to me is an atheist, is that his problem or mine?

 

[spade2you]

There should be a little subtle irony that this debate is about God being involved in AA, yet in the middle ages it was the churches that was basically controling alcohol production. Had they still been making the booze would athiests see this as unconstitutional?

 

[Southpaw5]

It's a disease. Do you understand? People need treatment.

Addiction is a disease, trying to pin it directly to alcohol is as ridiculous as tagging an ism to any drug. I actually have an issue with calling alcoholism a disease.Addiction is the disease alcohol is just the medium.

In all truth not all people who get a DUI are alcoholics in the true sense of the word. sometimes they're just make/made bad decisions.

 

[Southpaw5]

Now THAT would be unconstitutional.

how so?

 

[spade2you]

how so?

Same crime, different punishments for different wallets.

 

[Southpaw5]

Same crime, different punishments for different wallets.

not the same crime,each crime is tried separately.

 

[Quickie]

Addiction is a disease, trying to pin it directly to alcohol is as ridiculous as tagging an ism to any drug. I actually have an issue with calling alcoholism a disease.Addiction is the disease alcohol is just the medium.

In all truth not all people who get a DUI are alcoholics in the true sense of the word. sometimes they're just make/made bad decisions.

al·co·hol·ism/ˈalkəhôˌlizəm/
Noun: An addiction to the consumption of alcoholic liquor or the mental illness and compulsive behavior resulting from alcohol dependency

" Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."

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Debate them. You have after all, much more information then them.

 

[thumpbass1]

I'm a member of A.A. and we have atheists, as well as folks who subscribe to various religious faiths who are members. Our fellowship is based on a common desire to stop drinking first and above all. A.A. won't tell you what to believe in regards to religious matters, and for some it's the group itself that makes up their higher power and that is sufficient. As for the courts sending folks to A.A. I think in my state it's an option offered to offenders, in lieu of having to do something else. Hence it's the person who has gotten themselves in trouble through their drinking that choose that option.

It's true that A.A. has it's origins out of a Christian sobriety movement known as the Oxford group if my history is correct. None the less it imposes no creed upon anyone, nor will it demand that one give up any creed of faith or non-faith in it's fellowship.

 

[Southpaw5]

al·co·hol·ism/ˈalkəhôˌlizəm/
Noun: An addiction to the consumption of alcoholic liquor or the mental illness and compulsive behavior resulting from alcohol dependency

" Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."

Invalid Link Removed

Debate them. You have after all, much more information then them.

"Many physicians reject the disease theory of alcoholism. One study found that only 20 percent of physicians believe that substance addiction is a disease. In addition, 55 percent believe that there is "no effective treatment" for it.(T. McLellan. R-Considering Addiction Treatment: How Can Treatment Be More Accountable And Effective? A Continuing Medical Education (CME)Course. Cranston, Rhode Island, Association for Medical Education and Research on Substance Abuse, 2006.)

Another study found that only 25 percent of physicians believed that alcoholism is a disease. The majority believed alcoholism to be a social or psychological problem instead of a disease. (S.I. Mignon. Physicians' Perceptions of Alcoholics: The Disease Concept Reconsidered. Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, 1996, v. 14, no. 4, pp. 33-45)"

Disease theory of alcoholism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


AA agrees with you, but not everyone

 

[spade2you]

not the same crime,each crime is tried separately.

You still can't say that Warren Buffet has to pay $10,000,000 and some broke dude only has to pay $50 because of how much they make or don't make.

I suspect you feel that it's rich dudes getting away with DUIs because it's pocket change to them and you feel there's some sort of vindication for them paying more.

At least where I'm from, it's not the rich folk who have been busted for their 7th DUI and on the news. It usually looks more like the front row of a Skynard concert.

 

[Quickie]

AA agrees with you, but not everyone

This is true, but you can claim a disability for it and a few years ago, doctors stated that being homosexual was a disease.

Then the American Physiologically Association (doctors) changed the definition, as they should have. IMO.

Not all doctors are on the same page as reality.

 

[PSPookie]

al·co·hol·ism/ˈalkəhôˌlizəm/
Noun: An addiction to the consumption of alcoholic liquor or the mental illness and compulsive behavior resulting from alcohol dependency

" Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."

Invalid Link Removed

Debate them. You have after all, much more information then them.

Despite the wording, the way I read it he was more classifying Alcoholism as a subset of Addiction than saying that it isn't a disease.

A 'head cold' is still a cold, right?

 

[L-A]

Same crime, different punishments for different wallets.

I'd argue that it's not the same punishment if it's the same amount. Being punished isn't measured in dollars but in repercussions on the individual.

I too have a problem with the idea that some can "afford" crimes. Maybe all punishments should be in something else than money – I don't pretend that I have a solution, but I think I can point a serious problem.

 

[Southpaw5]

You still can't say that Warren Buffet has to pay $10,000,000 and some broke dude only has to pay $50 because of how much they make or don't make.

I suspect you feel that it's rich dudes getting away with DUIs because it's pocket change to them and you feel there's some sort of vindication for them paying more.

At least where I'm from, it's not the rich folk who have been busted for their 7th DUI and on the news. It usually looks more like the front row of a Skynard concert.

Well, I don't think they "get away" with it, but they certainly don't feel/see the financial impact. This is country where $ rules after all. and yeah, the vast majority of the media coverage involves the crowd you describe.

 

[Southpaw5]

Despite the wording, the way I read it he was more classifying Alcoholism as a subset of Addiction than saying that it isn't a disease.

A 'head cold' is still a cold, right?

ya hit the nail