Unconstitutional A.A.

[PSPookie]

My point was/is that professional therapy is not the same as a AA group therapy as you stated.

The only difference one would notice when attending one vs. the other would be a piece of paper with the name of a school on it hanging on the wall of one of the attendees. They are substantively and for all practical intents the same.

You seem to have very strong opinions on this topic; if I may ask, what direct experience do you have with addiction and recovery?

 

[Quickie]

The only difference one would notice when attending one vs. the other would be a piece of paper with the name of a school on it hanging on the wall of one of the attendees. They are substantively and for all practical intents the same.

You seem to have very strong opinions on this topic; if I may ask, what direct experience do you have with addiction and recovery?

Then of course, you would not care if the doctor who operates on you for....say....heart surgery.... didn't have "a piece of paper with the name of a school on it hanging on the wall"?

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f34/unconstitutional-799587/index6.html#post11349942

I'm in recovery everyday.

 

[PSPookie]

Then of course, you would not care if the doctor who operates on you for....say....heart surgery.... didn't have "a piece of paper with the name of a school on it hanging on the wall"?

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f34/unconstitutional-799587/index6.html#post11349942

I'm in recovery everyday.

Of course I would want the surgeon to have a degree, but now we're comparing apples to purple amorphous blobs.

In the case of the surgeon: He needs specialized training to be able to do his job properly. This is gained through going to medical school and slicing up cadavers until you have your act together. When this has been done to various boards' satisfaction he gets a piece of paper saying he is qualified to perform surgery. As such, the degree is directly related to the service he is performing.


In the case of the addiction counselor: He needs specialized training to be able to deal with the various emotional states and concerns of the recovering addict. However, this knowledge can be gained in the class room OR through experience. This experience can be personal recovery or working with those in recovery.

Which mechanic would you want: the one who has been fixing cars for 20 years or the one who has been reading books about fixing cars for 20 years?

-Friend of Bill

 

[Quickie]

In the case of the surgeon: He needs specialized training to be able to do his job properly. This is gained through going to medical school and slicing up cadavers until you have your act together. When this has been done to various boards' satisfaction he gets a piece of paper saying he is qualified to perform surgery. As such, the degree is directly related to the service he is performing.




-

So does a Psychiatrist.

And here is a Physiologic requirements.


Psychologist (Ph.D.)
Doctorate of Philosophy (Research degree)
General description: Doctoral degree in either clinical or counseling psychology

This is the traditional degree of practicing, academic, and research psychologists. Training includes courses in psychological assessment, theories and practice of different types of psychotherapy, research and statistics, as well as diagnosis and ethics. A dissertation is required which must be defended. The emphasis of this degree is on research and theory, much more so than any other degree discussed here. A pre-internship experience (called a practicum) is usually an integral part of the program. Some programs require multiple practicums. The average length of a Ph.D. program is 6 to 7 years. Ph.D. psychologists most often pursue careers in academia or practice.

The differences between a Ph.D. psychologist who graduated from a clinical program as opposed to a counseling program are minimal. Clinical programs, which are more widespread, tend to focus more on serious mental illness (e.g., depression, schizophrenia, anxiety, etc.) its assessment and treatment. Counseling programs tend to focus more on change-of-life issues (e.g., divorce, relationship problems, academic problems, etc.) and assessment of those problems. However, this is a broad generalization and the actual experiences of the clinician will vary according to the program they graduated from.

 

[PSPookie]

So does a Psychiatrist.

A psychiatrist also typically deals with a much wider range of mental health issues than just addiction.

It does not take a degree to moderate a group therapy session of the likes I am describing. In fact, most (even in recovery facilities) are not conducted by Doctors, Physician's Assistants, or even RNs, but by a junior Counselor with no such qualifications.

 

[Quickie]

A psychiatrist also typically deals with a much wider range of mental health issues than just addiction.

It does not take a degree to moderate a group therapy session of the likes I am describing. In fact, most (even in recovery facilities) are not conducted by Doctors, Physician's Assistants, or even RNs, but by a junior Counselor with no such qualifications.

See above post about Psychologists.

My point throughout this thread has been,

Alcoholism is a disease. It should be treated like any other substance abuse/addiction/disease. By qualified medical professions. AA, has a "cure" rate of about 10%. Some statics say even less. Although I think it is a good program as anything is better than nothing, most can not be cured by it. You need additional therapy by trained professionals.

 

[PSPookie]

See above post about Psychologists.

Yeah, I read your post. I'm not arguing that psychiatrists and psychologists don't need education and certification.

What I'm saying is that all of that certification: 1) doesn't necessarily prepare you to deal with recovering addicts 2) is not necessary to or even particularly useful for the type of group sessions I'm talking about.

Additional therapy by trained professionals may work for some and not for others. If one finds something that works, he should stick to it. "Cure" rates for addicts undergoing traditional talk therapy but no group therapy or 12 step (a.k.a. traditional medicine) are no better (and possibly worse) than thsoe of the 12 steps.

 

[Quickie]

Yeah, I read your post. I'm not arguing that psychiatrists and psychologists don't need education and certification.

What I'm saying is that all of that certification: 1) doesn't necessarily prepare you to deal with recovering addicts 2) is not necessary to or even particularly useful for the type of group sessions I'm talking about.

Additional therapy by trained professionals may work for some and not for others. If one finds something that works, he should stick to it. "Cure" rates for addicts undergoing traditional talk therapy but no group therapy or 12 step (a.k.a. traditional medicine) are no better (and possibly worse) than thsoe of the 12 steps.

OK. I see your point. My personal experience was that I responded to a licensed doctor. I went to a group therapy session and personally did not care to hear about other peoples struggles. I felt for them, but I was trying to get better. I found a one on one session to be very helpful and my therapist did not accept my BS as the group sessions did.

There were to many "professional victims" to deal with in those group sessions.

At that time of my life, I was my worse enemy. And my therapist made that known many times.

 

[PSPookie]

OK. I see your point. My personal experience was that I responded to a licensed doctor. I went to a group therapy session and personally did not care to hear about other peoples struggles. I felt for them, but I was trying to get better. I found a one on one session to be very helpful and my therapist did not accept my BS as the group sessions did.

There were to many "professional victims" to deal with.

At that time of my life, I was my worse enemy. And my therapist made that known many times.

I hear you. I tried the same things but my results were a bit different.

The one-on-one docs and the "medical" approach didn't help me much but did cost a pretty penny. Meetings got me well.

Yeah, you definitely have to learn to filter out some things and all meetings were not created equal.

 

[Munjibunga]

I believe in higher power ... 750 watts minimum.

 

[PSPookie]

I believe in higher power ... 750 watts minimum.

I haz 900.

 

[Quickie]

I hear you. I tried the same things but my results were a bit different.

The one-on-one docs and the "medical" approach didn't help me much but did cost a pretty penny. Meetings got me well.

Yeah, you definitely have to learn to filter out some things and all meetings were not created equal.

Best post of this string. What works for some, won't work for others. Well said.

 

[DeltaPhoenix]

The gift of desperation will make concerns of a Higher Power go away. I fought anything that had to do with "religion" for most of my life. I am in NA, almost the same as AA, our program is a shoot-off of their's. The bottom line is that this is a spirtual, not religous program. I do have a compassionate, caring higher power of my choice.
There is no "cure" for addiction, only a daily reprive from the horrors of active addiction. Let it be known that drugs and alcohol are not the only dangerous addictions in the world. Especially now that I have been "clean" (NA term that equates to sober) for over two years, and am working the steps with my sponsor, I realize that anything I do that is an escape from reality, life on life's terms, can be an addiction. It can be gambling, eating, video games, computers (TB classifieds wink wink), sex, FaceBook, conspiracy theories, exercise, shopping, whatever it is that keeps me from facing myself and my problems, responsibilites, etc.

Most Doctors don't know crap about addicition, and this comes from personal experience. I was injured at work, and made sure to let the Doctor know that I am a recovering addict and that I did not want opiates for pain. I was about 6 months clean at the time and I left with an opiate script in hand. I am so grateful that I did not use, I immediately got "dope sick" when the pharmacist handed me the drugs and started to discuss them (Shooting-up Heroin and other Opiates were my drugs of choice). I somehow got rid of them and cried because I was so scared...I almost didn't make the right choice but luckily I had the desire for recovery more. AA and NA are for those that WANT it, not those that NEED it.

 

[DeltaPhoenix]

I think I also would like to add a few things. Drugs are symptom of the disease(in NA alcohol is a drug). By working the steps I get a chance to look at my patterns of behavior (specifically character defects), identify them and make a conscious effort to change them. It is about progress not perfection. Doing these leads to spiritual growth for me ultimately leading me towards a positive life that is focused on being of service to others instead of one of being selfish, miserable and isolated.

 

[Quickie]

I think I also would like to add a few things. Drugs are symptom of the disease(in NA alcohol is a drug). By working the steps I get a chance to look at my patterns of behavior (specifically character defects), identify them and make a conscious effort to change them. It is about progress not perfection. Doing these leads to spiritual growth for me ultimately leading me towards a positive life that is focused on being of service to others instead of one of being selfish, miserable and isolated.

First, I am glad you are here and sharing your struggles. Second, I wish you continued success. My biggest flaw to this day is still my character flaws. I am opinionated and stubborn.
But like you, I try to be better every day.

 

[dj150888]

I don't really see what the alcoholism is/isn't a disease discussion has to do with DUIs.

An alcoholic driving under the influence is no less to blame than a non-addict having too much to drink and driving. Whether the person is suffering from a disease doesn't have jack to do with whether they put those keys into the ignition.

Driving drunk, in my opinion, is indefensible.

 

[Quickie]

I don't really see what the alcoholism is/isn't a disease discussion has to do with DUIs.

An alcoholic driving under the influence is no less to blame than a non-addict having too much to drink and driving. Whether the person is suffering from a disease doesn't have jack to do with whether they put those keys into the ignition.

Driving drunk, in my opinion, is indefensible.

The repeat of the pattern. Many people get just one DUI and they learn from it. The alcoholic does it over and over again. They can't help it.

 

[aborgman]

They forced the boy scouts to accept girls and atheists.......

Umm... no they didn't.

The Boy Scouts still don't accept atheists, girls, or homosexuals.

The Girl Scouts on the other hand are an organization that is completely unrelated to the Boy Scouts (and always has been) and is completely secular - so they will accept homosexuals and atheists (but not boys).

 

[aborgman]

I was thinking about this the other day. I'm not too sure about the answer but mine makes sense to me.

Would court appointing an atheist to A.A., or any other meeting as such, be considered unconstitutional?

Yes.

See:

Alcoholics Anonymous as a Condition of Drunk Driving Probation: When Does It Amount to Establishment of Religion?
Michael G. Honeymar, Jr. (Columbia Law Review)

IN THE MATTER OF DAVID GRIFFIN, APPELLANT, v. THOMAS A. COUGHLIN III, AS COMMISSIONER OF THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES, ET AL., RESPONDENTS.
88 N.Y.2d 674, 673 N.E.2d 98, 649 N.Y.S.2d 903 (1996).

United States courts have ruled that inmates, parolees, and probationers cannot be ordered to attend AA. Though AA itself was not deemed a religion, it was ruled that it contained enough religious components (variously described in GRIFFIN v. COUGHLIN as, inter alia, "religion", "religious activity", "religious exercise") to make coerced attendance at AA meetings a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the constitution.

 

[Quickie]

Yes.

See:

Alcoholics Anonymous as a Condition of Drunk Driving Probation: When Does It Amount to Establishment of Religion?
Michael G. Honeymar, Jr. (Columbia Law Review)

IN THE MATTER OF DAVID GRIFFIN, APPELLANT, v. THOMAS A. COUGHLIN III, AS COMMISSIONER OF THE NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES, ET AL., RESPONDENTS.
88 N.Y.2d 674, 673 N.E.2d 98, 649 N.Y.S.2d 903 (1996).

Our "rights" will be the downfall of this nation.