Unconstitutional A.A.

[billhilly66]

He could always dri......or wait, not any more.

Rant on: Doesn't like what's free and available because it violates his beliefs? I'm not advocating public execution, but at what point did we bend and waver to every petty demand? The subject was caught driving under the influence, which violated the safety and constitutional rights of others. I see no harm in some mild violation as part of the punishment. Nobody made him get behind the wheel. Find a way, deal with the consequences, etc.

Rant off.

I don’t know about that. The higher power thing was definitely god in the original manifestation of AA. They say it isn’t now but what is a higher power? They can’t make you go to church so offering an alternative seems to be the right thing to do. The fact that it isn’t handy is another issue.

 

[Joe Nerve]

A.A. is founded on religious beliefs.
I've read the books and no one can convince me otherwise...

I went there voluntarily and was turned off by the preaching that goes on. I'd rather drink than listen to them talk about their "higher power." All the meetings I went to also ended in prayer.

No offense to anyone intended. Peace

Didn't read the entire thread, only got this far. I'm sure this has been addressed already, as was the OP but I feel the need to reiterate.

I know many people who have long term sobriety in AA. I have a certificate in counseling, and a whole lot of experience on this subject.

AA requires absolutely nothing of anyone lest a desire to stop drinking. A 12 step program is suggested as a way to combat alcholism. The people who follow the 12 steps have a much better success rate than those who don't. Many people get sober and stay sober in AA just by attending meetings. I've seen people die sober and happy with over 30 years off of alcohol, without ever turning their lives over to a "higher power".

While I've heard it said "jokingly" that some people make parking meters, radiators and other such things their higher power, the notion is ridiculous and it doesn't actually happen. The majority of members are relatively intelligient and sane after the alchohol is removed, and well... trust me, it doesn't happen. What some people DO do (that have higher power issues) that want to incorporate the 12 steps into their life is make the group their higher power, or some people use the acronym Good Orderly Direction.

AA doesn't claim to be a cure for alchoholism. AA never had anything to do with courts appointing people to go there. AA never claimed that there aren't other ways for people to recover. As far as things go right now however, AA has the greatest success rate.

One last note for now... if someone is convinced that their negative opinion of AA is what it is, from their experience with a handful of meetings, I urge them to check out different places with an open mind. Every meeting has a different tone, and each group is autonomous which basically means that they run things a little differently. As in the rest of the world, there are some crazies in AA. A sensible person can weed the crazies out and listen to the people who are leading happy productive lives, free from their shackles to alcohol.

 

[Quickie]

Or like I said, "not a professional" I can see you don't respect my point of view here, that why I'm done. goodbye.


enjoy your crusade:scowl:

I assumed that you would have read my post, and understand that "I was in "therapy" for over 20 years with different pain management clinics" statement includes "professionals".

But I assumed wrongly. But being that I am "pro doctor",( after all they did help me) I am on a crusade according to you.

AA requires absolutely nothing of anyone lest a desire to stop drinking. A 12 step program is suggested as a way to combat alcholism. The people who follow the 12 steps have a much better success rate than those who don't. Many people get sober and stay sober in AA just by attending meetings. I've seen people die sober and happy with over 30 years off of alcohol, without ever turning their lives over to a "higher power".

I don't care if someone needs a higher power. It could be a picture of an ex loved one. As long as they use that to get better and help themselves lead a productive life.

In the 80's I was playing a lot and was involved with coke. I was an addict. I did not loose a job or get out of control, but if it was around, I'd do it.

I finally went to a therapist who helped me admit and then conquer the problem.

I have been drug free for over 20 + years.

It was embarrassing and humiliating. I will never go back there with ANY substance again.

 

[Southpaw5]

I assumed that you would have read my post, and understand that "I was in "therapy" for over 20 years with different pain management clinics" statement includes "professionals".

But I assumed wrongly. But being that I am "pro doctor",( after all they did help me) I am on a crusade according to you.

no, I did read you post, professional is more than just a title, it is a state on mind as well. Being that you were in therapy for 20 years you of all people should know that. there are plenty of un-professional doctors as well, I just left one.

 

[Chebass88]

OK, so an honest question here. How many addicts cure themselves of addictions? Do people just wake up in their own home and say "I am not going to drink anymore" (or overeat, or smoke, or drugs, etc.). Is it possible for full-blown alcoholics / addicts to make AND STICK TO such decisions?

What are the success rates of going it alone vs. a support group (AA) vs. a therapist? I'm defining "going it alone" as making the decision not to be addicted anymore, not attending external meetings (for the purpose of help with the addiction), etc.

 

[Joe Nerve]

What are the success rates of going it alone vs. a support group (AA) vs. a therapist? I'm defining "going it alone" as making the decision not to be addicted anymore, not attending external meetings (for the purpose of help with the addiction), etc.

There are no accurate statistics on this stuff, but I heard it said that the success rate of people stopping on their own is about equal to those stopping with the help of AA. What those statistics don't show, but what I've seen, is that the people who are sober through AA are generally much happier and well adjusted than those that simply quit. Many of those who quit on their own become angry miserable people, while AAer's lives more often than not seem to blossom and change in countless different ways. Putting a drink down for good can be accomplished by many. Doing it and being happy about it is a whole different story.

 

[arbitrary]

What are the success rates of going it alone vs. a support group (AA) vs. a therapist? I'm defining "going it alone" as making the decision not to be addicted anymore, not attending external meetings (for the purpose of help with the addiction), etc.

There's really no way to know, since they are "going it alone". You will get a bunch of qualitative case studies, but you can't compare success rates. It works for some people and it doesn't for others, the key is to find what works for you. If AA doesn't work for someone that's fine & if going it alone does, that's cool too.

 

[Quickie]

there are plenty of un-professional doctors as well,

I believe that I also stated this as well in a previous post.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f34/unconstitutional-799587/index5.html#post11349280


Here's just one of the clinics I went to. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f34/unconstitutional-799587/index5.html#post11349280

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Strohsx]

I do not think that words means what you think it means.

No, I was correct in my placement, though I don't think you understood my reason for posting it.

 

[fhm555]

...Many of those who quit on their own become angry miserable people...

Thus the term "dry drunk".

I quit for a month on my own, but I was afraid to go in a store for smokes because I had to walk into a place where I could also buy beer and I was afraid I was going to give in if I was not very careful...and quick. I was playing in a bar band and I showed up and did my job, but it was utter hell.

I gave in and went to an AA meeting because a friend of my brother was literal proof that AA worked. My first meeting was on Wednesday and I felt good enough afterward that my job that weekend was no longer an ordeal. Granted, it was no walk in the park for many months, but after I got into AA it was never a real problem and bars eventually became just another work place.

I learned drinking was my problem so there was no way I could go to my friends and family and tell them they could no longer drink around me. They didn't have an alcohol problem so why should they be forced to alter their lives to accommodate me?

I think I could have remained sober without AA, but I feel certain I would never have found a way to be sober and happy had I not become involved in AA.

It's motivating as hell to see people who are both sober and happy when all you are is not drinking.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

This thread is a huge buzzkill.

 

[baalroo]

I think the more important question is whether the courts should be ordering people into a program that has been shown with study after study over the years to be completely ineffectual and that has no real effect on recidivism rates compared to control groups.

 

[PSPookie]

No, I was correct in my placement, though I don't think you understood my reason for posting it.

I don't think you are getting the reference

 

[fhm555]

I think the more important question is whether the courts should be ordering people into a program that has been shown with study after study over the years to be completely ineffectual and that has no real effect on recidivism rates compared to control groups.

It's a money mint for people making a good living off the recovery industry.

It's also a prime example of our well meaning, but woefully misguided (and more than a little dangerous to our notion of individual freedom), compulsion to "fix" our fellow Americans through official government intervention in to the lives of those we feel are "broken".

 

[cassanova]

Didn't read the entire thread, only got this far. I'm sure this has been addressed already, as was the OP but I feel the need to reiterate.

I know many people who have long term sobriety in AA. I have a certificate in counseling, and a whole lot of experience on this subject.

AA requires absolutely nothing of anyone lest a desire to stop drinking. A 12 step program is suggested as a way to combat alcholism. The people who follow the 12 steps have a much better success rate than those who don't. Many people get sober and stay sober in AA just by attending meetings. I've seen people die sober and happy with over 30 years off of alcohol, without ever turning their lives over to a "higher power".

While I've heard it said "jokingly" that some people make parking meters, radiators and other such things their higher power, the notion is ridiculous and it doesn't actually happen. The majority of members are relatively intelligient and sane after the alchohol is removed, and well... trust me, it doesn't happen. What some people DO do (that have higher power issues) that want to incorporate the 12 steps into their life is make the group their higher power, or some people use the acronym Good Orderly Direction.

AA doesn't claim to be a cure for alchoholism. AA never had anything to do with courts appointing people to go there. AA never claimed that there aren't other ways for people to recover. As far as things go right now however, AA has the greatest success rate.

One last note for now... if someone is convinced that their negative opinion of AA is what it is, from their experience with a handful of meetings, I urge them to check out different places with an open mind. Every meeting has a different tone, and each group is autonomous which basically means that they run things a little differently. As in the rest of the world, there are some crazies in AA. A sensible person can weed the crazies out and listen to the people who are leading happy productive lives, free from their shackles to alcohol.

+1

Good point on each meeting having a different tone. Some AA groups will harp on religion and have a prayer, while some will not. They key is going to different meetings until you find a group that you can call home.

 

[thumpbass1]

It's a money mint for people making a good living off the recovery industry.

It's also a prime example of our well meaning, but woefully misguided (and more than a little dangerous to our notion of individual freedom), compulsion to "fix" our fellow Americans through official government intervention in to the lives of those we feel are "broken".

If you are refering to A.A. they refuse outside funding, and are self supported by the membership. The General head office may employ some professional workers here and there, but the notion of A.A. making money as part of the recovery industry is a false notion. If you weren't refering to A.A. I apologize.

 

[fhm555]

+1

Good point on each meeting having a different tone. Some AA groups will harp on religion and have a prayer, while some will not. They key is going to different meetings until you find a group that you can call home.

When I first moved to Florida it took me a while to find a meeting which was

A. Open to anyone
B. Not Bible based

The first place I called was a meeting upstairs in a tire store. It was regulated by the owner of the store who made no bones about requiring anyone allowed to attend meetings in his store also be a member of a local church, and he required proof. I never got far enough to find out what type of proof would have satisfied him. It was a small town and every meeting there was private and had some kind of religious tone to it. I wound up driving 13 miles to the coast to get an open meeting.

Private AA meetings are nothing new and can be run as the group sees fit. It is after all, their group.

 

[Quickie]

It's a money mint for people making a good living off the recovery industry.

It's also a prime example of our well meaning, but woefully misguided (and more than a little dangerous to our notion of individual freedom), compulsion to "fix" our fellow Americans through official government intervention in to the lives of those we feel are "broken".

The danger to our individual freedom is throwing someone who is ill into prison.

 

[Chebass88]

...The first place I called was a meeting upstairs in a tire store. It was regulated by the owner of the store who made no bones about requiring anyone allowed to attend meetings in his store also be a member of a local church, and he required proof. I never got far enough to find out what type of proof would have satisfied him. It was a small town and every meeting there was private and had some kind of religious tone to it. I wound up driving 13 miles to the coast to get an open meeting.

Private AA meetings are nothing new and can be run as the group sees fit. It is after all, their group.

Another non-flame question:

Are AA meetings private in that attendees are not discussed outside of the meeting? It is not as formal as the lawyer-client / doctor-patient / clergy-lay arrangement, obviously. If you had gone to his meeting (and subsequently his church, with all documentation required, of course), would you have been the topic of the Thursday afternoon Women's Bible Study?

 

[1958Bassman]

Addiction is a disease, trying to pin it directly to alcohol is as ridiculous as tagging an ism to any drug. I actually have an issue with calling alcoholism a disease.Addiction is the disease alcohol is just the medium.

In all truth not all people who get a DUI are alcoholics in the true sense of the word. sometimes they're just make/made bad decisions.

On your first point, maybe alcohol is the medium but many alcoholics don't use other illegal drugs. If they were truly addicted to anything that provides similar sensations, they would/might be more interested in trying other substances.

On your second point, sometimes the person's thought processes cause them to make bad decisions constantly because they no longer maintain any objectivity.

I know someone (not well, just through having done some A/V work at a local bar/restaurant) who got his second DUI recently. He lives across the street from this place and until recently, would come in early on Sunday mornings to clean. When he was sentenced, he was required to have an ignition interlock (blown into), an ankle bracelet and he wasn't allowed to drink for 24 days. Guess who was back at the bar immediately after being allowed to leave the house? One of the first times he went back to the bar, he reamed one of the bartenders so badly that she was shaking and crying. The guy can't make a good decision to save his life- after asking several people if he should co-sign a car loan, he did it anyway. He started a fire in a dumpster when he lit a firework and it went inside, he has been involved in several minor altercations and he damaged his new car within days of driving it off the lot. He hit his garage last week and tore a hole in the door, too. He blames everyone for his problems and when he asked me to look at the security camera DVR after setting the dumpster on fire, he was very sheepish and acted like he was the biggest POS on the planet but he never said anything about being sorry.

He's not uncommon here, either. We have far too many people who drive after revocation/prison/Huber/multiple DUI offenses. He needed to be forced to see that he's not in control of his life and that means he WILL do something bad again. Hopefully, nobody else will be hurt or killed.