Uncontrollable feedback on stage with a "drum alcove"

[Wasnex]

the widow is not helping much.

I agree, the glass is probably a significant factor.

 

[Buck_BassMan94]

I was at my rock band rehearsal last night.. they are trying to go all-IEM for the first time.. except for one guitar player who left his at home.. SMH!
Simple wired setup with P2's. I left my wireless rig at home, brought my P2.
So.. the click track - coming off an iPad - wasn't that loud and plugged into the AUX-IN on the digital mixer (TM16) which has NO GAIN setting. iPAd volume was max'd. The vocals were also low in the mix, so I bumped up the input gains to appropriate levels, which (in turn) jacked up the level in the wedge they had set up for the guitar player.
BL wanted to turn down the mic gain. I said no, there won't be enough head room if you reduce the gain, I'll just turn down the level in the wedge.
If that channel is now too loud in your IEM mix then I will turn down that down in your mix too.
Basically we ended up cutting each channel in each mix so the click could be heard, having gain-staged each input properly.

It's beginner stuff, but the point is, IEM's (and wedges) need all channels going to the board to be properly gain-staged., not adjusted based on how much of a specific channel you hear in your mix. It's a much too common issue~!

Absolutely! I think a lot of great musicians don’t always make great sound guys. Gain and volume are not the same thing. IEM/Monitors are not FOH. Simple stuff but often overlooked.

In my band I kinda see my self as the sound tech 1st and the bass player 2nd.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

 

[s0c9]

Absolutely! I think a lot of great musicians don’t always make great sound guys. Gain and volume are not the same thing. IEM/Monitors are not FOH. Simple stuff but often overlooked.

In my band I kinda see my self as the sound tech 1st and the bass player 2nd.

I believe this is amplified (‘scuse the pun) when the band is used to loud wedges. They have had (since I’ve been playing with them) 4x100w powered wedges on the floor in the rehearsal room - a converted garage. It’s INCREDIBLY LOUD to the point of hearing damage.
I have always brought my wireless IEM rig and taken a feed from the mixer to protect my hearing.
They seem to think that gain = loud, when setting input gain doesn’t matter. Krank the channel fader, max the wedge volume and go.
It’s also why they get terrible feedback at times, so they turn down the maxed channel fader..a little. It’s a band-aid.
It will take some time for me to train the BL in how to [optimally] gain stage the system - be it for wedges or IEM’s.
His band, his house, his rehearsal room, his PA.
This is NOT the first band I’ve been part of where I had to go thru this.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Actually when I looked at the picture the biggest thing I noticed as a possible problem was the 4 x 12 guitar cabinet
pointed straight into the audience no more than 20 feet away!

 

[TomB]

Actually when I looked at the picture the biggest thing I noticed as a possible problem was the 4 x 12 guitar cabinet
pointed straight into the audience no more than 20 feet away!

The usual problem LOL!

 

[bdplaid]

That's not my band. The guys to which I'm referring use two Marshall combo amps, one on each side. We usually had to turn our guy up in the PA.

 

[Buck_BassMan94]

I believe this is amplified (‘scuse the pun) when the band is used to loud wedges. They have had (since I’ve been playing with them) 4x100w powered wedges on the floor in the rehearsal room - a converted garage. It’s INCREDIBLY LOUD to the point of hearing damage.
I have always brought my wireless IEM rig and taken a feed from the mixer to protect my hearing.
They seem to think that gain = loud, when setting input gain doesn’t matter. Krank the channel fader, max the wedge volume and go.
It’s also why they get terrible feedback at times, so they turn down the maxed channel fader..a little. It’s a band-aid.
It will take some time for me to train the BL in how to [optimally] gain stage the system - be it for wedges or IEM’s.
His band, his house, his rehearsal room, his PA.
This is NOT the first band I’ve been part of where I had to go thru this.

Honestly, protection from hearing damage may be the single best reason to switch to IEMs. I don’t want to hijack this thread for that convo though.

But, I totally get the convincing folks that monitors can be lower levels dilemma. Rocking is fun, but loud don’t mean better lol.

Best of luck navigating your band dynamics, I know that’s tough waters.

 

[bdplaid]

When I used IEMs, my ears rang more than without. I turned them up too loud.

Band dynamics are a thing of the past, and you'll never know how happy I am to say that!

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Looks like a nightmare scenario if you have to also put microphones on that drum rig in the alcove. Sound will be bouncing all over. That's where the problem starts -- not the monitor. Garbage in, garbage out. Switch to an electronic kit and you'll be in a better sonic place with that physical layout.

 

[turf3]

I'm willing to bet that this band, in this space is TOO LOUD to start with. Remember GIGO? I bet if they would turn down to half the volume, the feedback issues would disappear, the band members could hear what they're doing, and the bar owner wouldn't have customers running out the door cursing.

 

[TomB]

I'm willing to bet that this band, in this space is TOO LOUD to start with. Remember GIGO? I bet if they would turn down to half the volume, the feedback issues would disappear, the band members could hear what they're doing, and the bar owner wouldn't have customers running out the door cursing.

I completely agree, and yet still have drummers who won’t locate themselves inside an alcove, and I understand their issue. Agreed also, an e-kit should solve the problem.

 

[rodl2005]

Alcoves are NEVER good. I've run into them many times.
Sometimes, the whole stage. Or, the stage and the dancefloor..... then they expect the sound to protect to the back of the room.

Nightmare sound scenarios.

The genius creation of some dopey club owner.


Id try and get the drummer out of the alcove and block it up if possible.

 

[Bullitt5135]

As others have said, those feedback destroyer things are akin to killing flies with a sledgehammer. IME, a simple graphic EQ plus a phone app with a Realtime Analyzer (RTA) allows to you control feedback pretty easily – assuming you practice proper gain-staging and reasonable stage volume.

I'm with the OP...it's probably a good thing you've left the band if you prioritize putting on a quality experience for the audience vs. an ego trip for the band. It's not a lot of fun to suffer through gigs with people unwilling to compromise to solve basic technical issues. It would be pretty easy for the drummer to use headphones or IEMs to eliminate feedback issues. I'm guessing he's hitting pretty hard to keep up with the 5150 and 4x12?

 

[bdplaid]

As others have said, those feedback destroyer things are akin to killing flies with a sledgehammer. IME, a simple graphic EQ plus a phone app with a Realtime Analyzer (RTA) allows to you control feedback pretty easily – assuming you practice proper gain-staging and reasonable stage volume.

I'm with the OP...it's probably a good thing you've left the band if you prioritize putting on a quality experience for the audience vs. an ego trip for the band. It's not a lot of fun to suffer through gigs with people unwilling to compromise to solve basic technical issues. It would be pretty easy for the drummer to use headphones or IEMs to eliminate feedback issues. I'm guessing he's hitting pretty hard to keep up with the 5150 and 4x12?

That pic with the 412 was a different band on the same stage. My guy used two Marshall combos at a low volume. The drummer needed a monitor to hear the guitarist and singer, and that monitor caused the problems in the alcove.

I absolutely detest dealing with sound matters, even though I owned a sound company in the 80s. But I hate feedback even more and know how to get rid of it, but the band insisted on using their lower end basic Yamaha mixer with no EQs rather than my QSC Touchmix 30 (with every EQ imaginable). Oh well, no longer my problem, and I'm much, much happier for it.

 

[bdplaid]

As others have said, those feedback destroyer things are akin to killing flies with a sledgehammer.

And also, I have a Behringer feedback Destroyer. I never got it to work, so I't been in my garage for 15 years.

 

[Bullitt5135]

That pic with the 412 was a different band on the same stage. My guy used two Marshall combos at a low volume. The drummer needed a monitor to hear the guitarist and singer, and that monitor caused the problems in the alcove.

I absolutely detest dealing with sound matters, even though I owned a sound company in the 80s. But I hate feedback even more and know how to get rid of it, but the band insisted on using their lower end basic Yamaha mixer with no EQs rather than my QSC Touchmix 30 (with every EQ imaginable). Oh well, no longer my problem, and I'm much, much happier for it.

I quit my old band for the same reason. I got sick of coming off stage and hearing stuff like "you guys were great, but we couldn't hear x-y-z." I invested in better mixer with outboard EQ for mains and monitors for the band, but the dinosaurs in my band refused to use it because it was "too complicated."

Without a graphic EQ for the drummers wedge, the best you can to is turn everything down as much as possible and get brutal with whatever EQ control you have on the mixer. I'd also turn off all vocal FX and compression, and try to get the wedge next to the drummer's head.

 

[bdplaid]

Easier said than done. The singer is so lazy she wouldn't even set up a monitor. I had to share mine with her. And mind you, without a monitor her pitch sux. Oh well.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

That pic with the 412 was a different band on the same stage. My guy used two Marshall combos at a low volume. The drummer needed a monitor to hear the guitarist and singer, and that monitor caused the problems in the alcove.

I absolutely detest dealing with sound matters, even though I owned a sound company in the 80s. But I hate feedback even more and know how to get rid of it, but the band insisted on using their lower end basic Yamaha mixer with no EQs rather than my QSC Touchmix 30 (with every EQ imaginable). Oh well, no longer my problem, and I'm much, much happier for it.

Sounds like they will be stuck feeding back forever and complaining about it after each show!!!

 

[TheReceder]

Here's a look at the offending stage.

View attachment 7127209

You have to wonder what were they thinking when they designed that stage.... Drummers must dread playing there.