Double Bass Underwood vs Full Circle vs Realist

[Endlesssolo]

For all your single element Underwood needs…
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/onederwood-pickup-update.1385237/
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/onederwood-pickup-update.1385237/

I looked at that thread but it didn’t answer my main question, which is can I simply cut out the ‘middle’ element and splice the wire from the jack to the ‘end’ element? What I’m picturing is cutting the wire just barely past the middle element (between the middle and end) and then cutting the wire between the output jack and the middle element, probably somewhat closer to the jack. Then splice those together. What I’m wondering is how that would change the impedance of the pickup as opposed to just letting the middle element hang.

There’s another thing, when I have the pickup plugged in, and I handle the end element, there is a sound response, but when I do the same for the middle element, there’s a lot more noise and crackling. So I’m wondering if this indicates a problem with the middle element.

I don’t have a lot to lose here, I’m pretty confident I won’t use the pickup as is with both elements installed. It’s too bright even into a 10Mohm input and with the upper minds and highs turned completely down on my Clarus. I haven’t even tried it in my woods which is a brighter amp to begin with.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I looked at that thread but it didn’t answer my main question, which is can I simply cut out the ‘middle’ element and splice the wire from the jack to the ‘end’ element? What I’m picturing is cutting the wire just barely past the middle element (between the middle and end) and then cutting the wire between the output jack and the middle element, probably somewhat closer to the jack. Then splice those together. What I’m wondering is how that would change the impedance of the pickup as opposed to just letting the middle element hang.

There’s another thing, when I have the pickup plugged in, and I handle the end element, there is a sound response, but when I do the same for the middle element, there’s a lot more noise and crackling. So I’m wondering if this indicates a problem with the middle element.

I don’t have a lot to lose here, I’m pretty confident I won’t use the pickup as is with both elements installed. It’s too bright even into a 10Mohm input and with the upper minds and highs turned completely down on my Clarus. I haven’t even tried it in my woods which is a brighter amp to begin with.

Cutting and splicing should work. The impedance will be a bit lower as one element needs no longer drive the other.

I did something similar (just cutting off the end element) with a Shadow SH-950 where the end element was broken. Sounded better afterwards.
I could hear crackling when I pressed with my fingers on both sides of the element which indicated that the ceramic inside was broken. So try before cutting, but I‘m sure you will be happier after taking the middle element out.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I looked at that thread but it didn’t answer my main question, which is can I simply cut out the ‘middle’ element and splice the wire from the jack to the ‘end’ element? What I’m picturing is cutting the wire just barely past the middle element (between the middle and end) and then cutting the wire between the output jack and the middle element, probably somewhat closer to the jack. Then splice those together. What I’m wondering is how that would change the impedance of the pickup as opposed to just letting the middle element hang.

There’s another thing, when I have the pickup plugged in, and I handle the end element, there is a sound response, but when I do the same for the middle element, there’s a lot more noise and crackling. So I’m wondering if this indicates a problem with the middle element.

I don’t have a lot to lose here, I’m pretty confident I won’t use the pickup as is with both elements installed. It’s too bright even into a 10Mohm input and with the upper minds and highs turned completely down on my Clarus. I haven’t even tried it in my woods which is a brighter amp to begin with.

That’s exactly what I did and it worked fine. Be advised the wire is tiny!
I’ve since moved on to a different pickup but I still have the onederwood as a backup to my backup.

 

[Endlesssolo]

On the underwood, I cut off the middle element and spliced things together and tried it out. Not great results; it works fine and the output is really strong, but it doesn’t sound appreciably better than using both elements. Using just the bass element with the other one hanging in space seemed to sound the best. It doesn’t make any sense. Oh well, I had bought that underwood at least 20 years ago and I wasn’t going to use it as is, so no loss.

 

[Endlesssolo]

Does anyone have an opinion about the Yamahiko single element vs the full circle? I don’t especially care about the build quality or longevity, I’m interested in the difference in sound. With the realist on one end of the spectrum and underwood on the other in terms of forward mids vs boominess, I assume both the full circle and yamahiko are in between, but where are they in relation to each other?

I read that entire 60 page thread on the yamahiko and this question wasn’t really answered, but there sure was a lot of talk about other things, lol!

 

[Endlesssolo]

I bought a full circle from the classifieds here and so far I like it quite a bit, although I haven’t played a gig on it yet. It is, as I had hoped, right in the middle of the bright/mid-edgy vs boomy/muddy spectrum that has the underwood on one end and the realist on the other. I’d love to try a Yamahiko but I’m already far enough down this rabbit hole.

One thing about the full circle I’m not crazy about is the output mounting arrangement. The foam plug that fits in the circular opening of the bridge wing definitely dampens the sound, it’s not a bad thing in use on a loud gig but it’s annoying for practicing, especially with the bow. And the RCA plug on the end of the output jack puts the wire really close to the top of the bass where it can buzz. I’m thinking of replacing that RCA plug with a right angle plug that would send the wire parallel to the bass top instead of straight at it. I also just took the foam plug off and so far no buzzing. I’ll just pop it in for gigs.

Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread!

 

[Matt Power]

Does anyone have an opinion about the Yamahiko single element vs the full circle? I don’t especially care about the build quality or longevity, I’m interested in the difference in sound. With the realist on one end of the spectrum and underwood on the other in terms of forward mids vs boominess, I assume both the full circle and yamahiko are in between, but where are they in relation to each other?

I read that entire 60 page thread on the yamahiko and this question wasn’t really answered, but there sure was a lot of talk about other things, lol!

Yes, I had the FC on my bass for a year. Beside the fact that it died, it sounded good, but it's on the brighter end sonically, imo. I installed a Yamahiko and am literally over the moon about it. Clean, clear, very full and I believe it to be the most mic-like piezo avaliable. They are close...kinda. But just on tone alone, not to mention durability, flexibility of wire placement, and that they are THE best aluminum bridge adjusters available. The adjusters are tonally very gold! The adjusters alone made my bass sound better UNAMPLIFIED. No stretch.

 

[Earl]

Yes, I had the FC on my bass for a year. Beside the fact that it died, it sounded good, but it's on the brighter end sonically, imo. I installed a Yamahiko and am literally over the moon about it. Clean, clear, very full and I believe it to be the most mic-like piezo avaliable. They are close...kinda. But just on tone alone, not to mention durability, flexibility of wire placement, and that they are THE best aluminum bridge adjusters available. The adjusters are tonally very gold! The adjusters alone made my bass sound better UNAMPLIFIED. No stretch.

Yes, they are VERY nice adjusters.

 

[Jean-Baptiste]

Hello everyone, I was wondering why those people don't like using the two element of the Underwood pickup?

Since they are design to have two elements I wonder what might be the cause of so many people only using one.

Also does anyone try running those into a preamp?

I just got a Shadow SH 950 for pretty cheap and was thinking of trying to put in on my Shadow Rockabilly preamp, anyone try that before? ( Removing the 1/4 jack female and wire a 1/8 male jack )

Do you guys think it will cause phase problems with the clicky pickup?

Thank's

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Hello everyone, I was wondering why those people don't like using the two element of the Underwood pickup?

Since they are design to have two elements I wonder what might be the cause of so many people only using one.

Also does anyone try running those into a preamp?

I just got a Shadow SH 950 for pretty cheap and was thinking of trying to put in on my Shadow Rockabilly preamp, anyone try that before? ( Removing the 1/4 jack female and wire a 1/8 male jack )

Do you guys think it will cause phase problems with the clicky pickup?

Thank's

View attachment 5466053

It should work.

The two sensors mounted in the bridge wings act a bit against each other, so a single sensor placed into a bridge wing doesn‘t have that problem.
Also one sensor acts as a driver for the other piezo without separate impedance buffers, so a single sensor on the cable doesn‘t have this problem.
Depending on the setting point of the soundpost a single sensor can represent all strings equally well or not (even on a 5-string).
As long as you don‘t feel that the sound is not acceptable, just the play the thing.

 

[Matt Power]

A couple of people have told me that too, I remember being excited to try it, and then disappointed when it didn't really change things.

That's how life seems to go for me playing double bass with a pickup. Hope, disappointment, acceptance, repeat.

I have a feeling I'm going to end up buying a full circle. I would love to try one first, and you don't see them for sale used that often.

Get the Yamahiko. Less than the Full Circle, shipped to your door with the yen/dollar exchange rate!

 

[Endlesssolo]

Get the Yamahiko. Less than the Full Circle, shipped to your door with the yen/dollar exchange rate!

I think it’s inevitable that I will get one at some point. For now I’m pretty happy with the full circle, sound wise. The wire and output jack arrangement definitely has room for improvement. I bought it used for a good price to try it and so far, so good.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Yes I have, to me it wasn't a big difference. It's still a very mid-rangy sound.

Also try flipping one of the wings of the Underwood upside down…

Kinda hard to see but notice how the cord from the E string wing is passing under the bridge to the G side wing. The G wing is upside down from how its usually installed.

The Underwoods said that some shipped out in the early days out of phase from each wing and by flipping one it supposedly brought them back in phase and reduced the harshness. They also suggested doing that or switching the wings from one side to the other or the opposite of what the directions stated on how to install them.

Remember when you evaluate the sound of your upright, consider where you stand and hear your bass vs where you audience is hearing you bass. We stand on the side or back of our bass, while your audience is in front of it.

To me, the sound of the Underwood is the sound of the bass, from the front. While the Gage is more of the sound of the bass from where you stand at the back and side. That is why the Gage though an amp sounds good to you until you start playing with others and you get lost in the mix.

It’s like that bedroom tone vs live tone of an amp. The thick dark full low end in the bedroom sounds heavenly. But on a gig you are lost in the mix with that tone. You need that mid-range punch to be heard. Yet back at home that sounds bad. Same thing here. What sounds good to us on our own doesn’t always translate on the gig and vice versa.

 

[Endlesssolo]

It’s like that bedroom tone vs live tone of an amp. The thick dark full low end in the bedroom sounds heavenly. But on a gig you are lost in the mix with that tone. You need that mid-range punch to be heard. Yet back at home that sounds bad. Same thing here. What sounds good to us on our own doesn’t always translate on the gig and vice versa.

There is definitely something to that, but I would add that it varies considerably from gig to gig and room to room. Top on the list of variability is the presence of a drummer. Speaker cabinet, and it's placement, is another big one.

I've done several gigs with the underwood and it's just too mid-rangy for me.

 

[DJ Bebop]

There is definitely something to that, but I would add that it varies considerably from gig to gig and room to room. Top on the list of variability is the presence of a drummer. Speaker cabinet, and it's placement, is another big one.

I've done several gigs with the underwood and it's just too mid-rangy for me.

That’s cool. If you got an amp and can put it where you need it and at the volume level that works. Any pickup you like will work.

Try those suggestions on the Underwood I mentioned and see if any of that helps. It did for me.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Also try flipping one of the wings of the Underwood upside down…

View attachment 7004668

Kinda hard to see but notice how the cord from the E string wing is passing under the bridge to the G side wing. The G wing is upside down from how its usually installed.

The Underwoods said that some shipped out in the early days out of phase from each wing and by flipping one it supposedly brought them back in phase and reduced the harshness. They also suggested doing that or switching the wings from one side to the other or the opposite of what the directions stated on how to install them.

Remember when you evaluate the sound of your upright, consider where you stand and hear your bass vs where you audience is hearing you bass. We stand on the side or back of our bass, while your audience is in front of it.

To me, the sound of the Underwood is the sound of the bass, from the front. While the Gage is more of the sound of the bass from where you stand at the back and side. That is why the Gage though an amp sounds good to you until you start playing with others and you get lost in the mix.

It’s like that bedroom tone vs live tone of an amp. The thick dark full low end in the bedroom sounds heavenly. But on a gig you are lost in the mix with that tone. You need that mid-range punch to be heard. Yet back at home that sounds bad. Same thing here. What sounds good to us on our own doesn’t always translate on the gig and vice versa.

I do not think flipping the Underwood changes phase, since the piezo reacts to squeezing, not moving up/down. Inverting the wirering should change phase in some way though. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong. Agree on a lot of the other stuff.

 

[Earl]

The best pickup to date for my bass is the Bassbalsereit by ANS (passive version). Needs no HPF, sounds better WITHOUT a preamp, and you can EQ the sound by turning it, and by how tight and how far it is inserted into the hole that must be drilled in the bridge. I did not want a hole in my bridge but I find no downside to that and have had it done to three basses. The Yamahiko is great but too bassy/dark for me and needs a good preamp with EQ.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I do not think flipping the Underwood changes phase, since the piezo reacts to squeezing, not moving up/down. Inverting the wirering should change phase in some way though. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong. Agree on a lot of the other stuff.

Well I don’t know the particulars and I could have stated the phasing thing wrong. That is why I said supposedly, as that is also my understanding of electrical phasing as well, the polarity need to change electrically. But whatever they were trying to say, it worked for me and I would suggest trying it to see if it works for someone else as well.

 

[Don Kasper]

The best pickup to date for my bass is the Bassbalsereit by ANS (passive version). Needs no HPF, sounds better WITHOUT a preamp, and you can EQ the sound by turning it, and by how tight and how far it is inserted into the hole that must be drilled in the bridge. I did not want a hole in my bridge but I find no downside to that and have had it done to three basses. The Yamahiko is great but too bassy/dark for me and needs a good preamp with EQ.

Hi Earl,
I'm intrigued by this pickup. Do you know of a (US) seller that might have it in stock?
Thanks.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The ANS is the former BassBalsereit from german luthier Willi Balsereit.
He sold it to a younger guy to continue production and development under the name ANS.
Mr. Balsereit’s shop in Cologne has closed more than a decade ago and he does (did?) a bit of work at a different luthier a bit outside of Cologne.
A Wilson K1 is mounted in a similar way but is smaller, but you should note that it is not (as) conical as the ANS, so you cannot get that much pressure variation.

I’m not a big fan soundwise what I hear from other bassists around Cologne, but that could be the setup of pickup or amp and sound taste that doesn’t fit my sound.

I have an old passive one, but I refused to get a hole in the bridge (you need a cello peg reamer for it as it is conical) of my bass.
It is my emergency pickup for my Clevinger EUB as the was already a hole a little bigger, so I used strips of cardboard to fit it into that hole.