Double Bass Unfixable wolf Tone?

[dantevalencia]

Hello friends of bass,

I have a very nice German bass ( new 2024 from Markneukirchen)
It has been a great time with it but...

The first string ( solo tuning A) has a wolf tone, a very persistent, and also there is one in the 3rd string ( B) the bass sounds a lot. Like maybe too much. I already verified the correct position of the soundpost, tried a lot of strings ( Belcanto solo y flexocore Deluxe combo now) and has a harp shaped tailpiece.

I put a wolf eliminator l, but it moves the wolf to other open string ( 2nd). Is there something else I could do? Change the tailpiece? Maybe the harp shape is giving too much resonance? Maybe the position of the tailpiece?

It's a really nice instrument and I want to play with him for a long time.

Also if it's important to know, I'm a professional orchestra player in a major orchestra in Germany.

If somebody has ideas.

I would be grateful



All the best

 

[Don Kasper]

Hello friends of bass,

I have a very nice German bass ( new 2024 from Markneukirchen)
It has been a great time with it but...

The first string ( solo tuning A) has a wolf tone, a very persistent, and also there is one in the 3rd string ( B) the bass sounds a lot. Like maybe too much. I already verified the correct position of the soundpost, tried a lot of strings ( Belcanto solo y flexocore Deluxe combo now) and has a harp shaped tailpiece.

I put a wolf eliminator l, but it moves the wolf to other open string ( 2nd). Is there something else I could do? Change the tailpiece? Maybe the harp shape is giving too much resonance? Maybe the position of the tailpiece?

It's a really nice instrument and I want to play with him for a long time.

Also if it's important to know, I'm a professional orchestra player in a major orchestra in Germany.

If somebody has ideas.

I would be grateful



All the best

Try changing the afterlength (from Bridge to Tailpiece) - your luthier can assist you if you are not confident in your Luthier skills.
You might need to try lengthening or shortening the afterlength by an inch either way and see if there is a change in the Wolf Situation.
(FYI - This method worked for me on my carved Juzek.)
Good Hunting.

 

[Wasnex]

What sort of wolf eliminator, did you use?

There are the ones you put on a string.

AFAIK this type is adjusted to tune to an octave of the Wolf.

There are different kinds that are used on the body of the bass.
This one has a tunable range:

Wolf Note Eliminator For Double Bass - Wolf Terminator

The Wolf Terminator is our answer to the problem of controlling wolf notes on the double bass.

wolfterminator.com

This one works with positioning on the bass's body

Krentz Modulator - Krentz String Works

The Krentz Modulator changes, rather than absorbing vibrations from the top of the cello. As a result, there is no depreciation in sound quality. Rather, the device actually increases the efficiency of the instrument, allowing the musician to subtly control important aspects of the instrument’s...

krentzstringworks.com

AFAIK tuning the afterlength is another approach. I assume switching tail pieces would fall into this category.

And of course bridge and sound post adjustments.

A more extreme solution might involve taking the top off and fixing hidden damage (loose bass bar) or updating the bass's structure. For example regraduating the top plate or modifying the bass bar.

I would suggest working with a good luthier.

A word of warning, AFAIK there's no free lunch. So controlling the wolf is likely to impact other qualities the bass posseses.

 

[dantevalencia]

What sort of wolf eliminator, did you use?

There are the ones you put on a string.
View attachment 7309990
AFAIK this type is adjusted to tune to an octave of the Wolf.

There are different kinds that are used on the body of the bass.
This one has a tunable range:
View attachment 7309992

Wolf Note Eliminator For Double Bass - Wolf Terminator

The Wolf Terminator is our answer to the problem of controlling wolf notes on the double bass.

wolfterminator.com

This one works with positioning on the bass's body

Krentz Modulator - Krentz String Works

The Krentz Modulator changes, rather than absorbing vibrations from the top of the cello. As a result, there is no depreciation in sound quality. Rather, the device actually increases the efficiency of the instrument, allowing the musician to subtly control important aspects of the instrument’s...

krentzstringworks.com

AFAIK tuning the afterlength is another approach. I assume switching tail pieces would fall into this category.

And of course bridge and sound post adjustments.

A more extreme solution might involve taking the top off and fixing hidden damage (loose bass bar) or updating the bass's structure. For example regraduating the top plate or modifying the bass bar.

I would suggest working with a good luthier.

A word of warning, AFAIK there's no free lunch. So controlling the wolf is likely to impact other qualities the bass posseses.

Hello dear Wasnex,

I have a tried with a lot of different wolf eliminator ( brass weight) with different weights. I also own a wolf terminator but I really dislike how it looks and also, didn't fix completely the problem.

Krentz is still something I didn't try. But first I would like to try all the traditional ways.

I'm working already with really good luthiers, but maybe not that capable off fixing this particular case.

Also, what is AFAIK?

All the best


Dante

 

[dantevalencia]

Try changing the afterlength (from Bridge to Tailpiece) - your luthier can assist you if you are not confident in your Luthier skills.
You might need to try lengthening or shortening the afterlength by an inch either way and see if there is a change in the Wolf Situation.
(FYI - This method worked for me on my carved Juzek.)
Good Hunting.

Dear Don,

Thanks for your answer,

I will try this and I will post the result for future references.



Thanks a lot


Dante

 

[Wasnex]

Also, what is AFAIK?

It means "As far as I know."

While I do have a background in double bass performance, I am by no means an expert.

I had another thought. Is the wolf unmanageable with the bass in standard tuning? I can't say if it's correct, but my assumption is lighter gauge strings will probably make the bass more susceptible to the problem. So maybe this bass is not the right choice for solo work.

 

[Francois Blais]

Also, what is AFAIK?

As Far As I Know.

 

[AGCurry]

You identified the strings which have the wolf tone, but I didn't see that you identified the NOTES which "howl." Does that mean that the open strings howl? That's unusual, but every bass I've had displays a wolf around A, especially on the D string, so those two strings you mentioned are in that sonic vicinity. The fact that you're in solo tuning may affect that, of course.

Several people who should know have told me that a) every GOOD bass will have a wolf tone, b) the best we can do is to move it to a note where it's not so frequent or noticeable, and c) "fixing" the wolf tone may degrade the bass's response in other ways. I think we've pretty-much exhausted the common knowledge and advice here that's available. Viel Glück!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Experimenting with other tailpieces might help, but I would first change the length of the tailpiece cable. And if you still have the old solid coat hanger brass wire replace it with some aircraft cable with an adjustable clamp.
The soundpost also has a large influence on wolf notes.

A resonant bass easily has a resonant wolf too. Reducing the resonance of the wolf also reduces the resonance of a lot of other frequencies of the instrument.
The trick is indeed moving it to a note that disturbs the least.

I would experiment first with soundpost and tailpiece wire length. Cheapest option and maximum effect. Only fine tuning is time consuming.

For the brass weights on the underlengths, moving them along the underlength to different positions can be used for fine tuning.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

What is the tailpiece made of? A heavier tailpiece might dampen the response enough to tame the wolf without affecting the instrument’s performance in an orchestral setting. Just a wild guess.

 

[dantevalencia]

It means "As far as I know."

While I do have a background in double bass performance, I am by no means an expert.

I had another thought. Is the wolf unmanageable with the bass in standard tuning? I can't say if it's correct, but my assumption is lighter gauge strings will probably make the bass more susceptible to the problem. So maybe this bass is not the right choice for solo work.

Dear Wasnex,

Thanks for the explanation.

This bass was never played in another tuning.

I should give a try on that.

Thanks a lot


Dante

 

[dantevalencia]

You identified the strings which have the wolf tone, but I didn't see that you identified the NOTES which "howl." Does that mean that the open strings howl? That's unusual, but every bass I've had displays a wolf around A, especially on the D string, so those two strings you mentioned are in that sonic vicinity. The fact that you're in solo tuning may affect that, of course.

Several people who should know have told me that a) every GOOD bass will have a wolf tone, b) the best we can do is to move it to a note where it's not so frequent or noticeable, and c) "fixing" the wolf tone may degrade the bass's response in other ways. I think we've pretty-much exhausted the common knowledge and advice here that's available. Viel Glück!

You identified the strings which have the wolf tone, but I didn't see that you identified the NOTES which "howl." Does that mean that the open strings howl? That's unusual, but every bass I've had displays a wolf around A, especially on the D string, so those two strings you mentioned are in that sonic vicinity. The fact that you're in solo tuning may affect that, of course.

Several people who should know have told me that a) every GOOD bass will have a wolf tone, b) the best we can do is to move it to a note where it's not so frequent or noticeable, and c) "fixing" the wolf tone may degrade the bass's response in other ways. I think we've pretty-much exhausted the common knowledge and advice here that's available. Viel Glück!

Dear AGCurry,

Well I read now every post about this topic in Talkbass.

Very useful information and I will try it.
About the notes, well the worst note is the A that means also is affected in second string and fourth ( very annoying when you play Vanhal for example) and same with B ( while is not that strong is difficult to manage)

I'm aware that eliminate a wolf is not possible and moving it it's the solution but still can not find a place where moves both wolf tones.


All the best


Dante

 

[dantevalencia]

Experimenting with other tailpieces might help, but I would first change the length of the tailpiece cable. And if you still have the old solid coat hanger brass wire replace it with some aircraft cable with an adjustable clamp.
The soundpost also has a large influence on wolf notes.

A resonant bass easily has a resonant wolf too. Reducing the resonance of the wolf also reduces the resonance of a lot of other frequencies of the instrument.
The trick is indeed moving it to a note that disturbs the least.

I would experiment first with soundpost and tailpiece wire length. Cheapest option and maximum effect. Only fine tuning is time consuming.

For the brass weights on the underlengths, moving them along the underlength to different positions can be used for fine tuning.

Dear DoubleMIDI,

Thanks for your answer, at the moment it has a nylon wire? I'm not sure but synthetic material.

Soundpost has been already checked and I'm my opinion it's in the perfect place, but if it's necessary I can move it again ( we'll, a Luthier).

Thanks again.


All the best

Dante

 

[dantevalencia]

What is the tailpiece made of? A heavier tailpiece might dampen the response enough to tame the wolf without affecting the instrument’s performance in an orchestral setting. Just a wild guess.

Dear KUNGfuSHERIFF,

The tailpiece is made of ebony, quite heavy. I don't know if there are more heavy ones.

I will check

All the best

Dante

 

[Francois Blais]

Then maybe a lighter tailpiece may help.

 

[Mark_T]

If you have a synthetic (nylon) tailpiece hangar (ie, cable), you might try squeezing the cables together or pulling them apart slightly. This affects the ability of the tailpiece to rock back and forth when the strings are vibrating. These kinds of motions are part of the whole system and can affect wolftones.

There is a natural width that they'll want to be at, but you can usually coax them a few millimeters apart or together for a while, and that might give you some hints as to what's going on. There's enough friction in the system that they'll stay for a while so if it helps you might be able to just keep them that way for a while and adjust if the wolf gets worse.

I definitely agree about adjusting the afterlengths. A harp tailpiece is fine and good but in reality, a pre-manufactured anything won't be a perfect match to the needs of the resonant body of your bass, so the harp tailpiece is not necessarily helping or hurting. I also think it's worth doing the experiment to tune down a step (without changing strings).

I don't recall having dealt with a bass that wolfed on open strings, though. My basses have all tended to wolf on the third (A) string around the A harmonic, usually anywhere in the range of G# to B. The wolf also tended to occur on the fourth (E) string at the same pitches. You could detect some effects on the second string sometimes, but the effects were considerably diminished on the thinner strings. I agree with the advice that if changing tailpieces and afterlengths doesn't help, you don't have much choice beyond considering more invasive methods (my bass has a small wooden bar under the bass side F hole that's meant to curb common wolf sources - voodoo? maybe, but it can have an effect) or just moving on from this bass.

 

[Mark_T]

Lastly, did you try howling at it?



(I don't believe this works but I did try it once)

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Dante,

I agree that a lighter tailpiece may help, but the first thing I’d change is the nylon tailgut. When those first became popular I tried one and couldn’t get rid of it fast enough. They seem to dampen a lot of high-frequency information. Perhaps allowing your bass to produce more sonic information could help bury the wolf.

It could also make the wolf louder, but fitting a braided steel tailgut is a cheap experiment.

 

[TroyK]

Try changing the afterlength (from Bridge to Tailpiece) - your luthier can assist you if you are not confident in your Luthier skills.
You might need to try lengthening or shortening the afterlength by an inch either way and see if there is a change in the Wolf Situation.
(FYI - This method worked for me on my carved Juzek.)
Good Hunting.

This fixed mine and my wolfe elimator brass bits have been in a drawer for years.

If you pluck the after length, ideally you'll hear a pitch that is some number of octaves and a 4th above the open string pitch.

Not everyone believes in this sort of thing, but it 100% is real in my case. My luthier (Jake DeVilliers) is a true believer and he went a bit further by shaping and removing material from the tailpiece and the underside of the fingerboard overhang to tune the pitch heard from whacking them with something like a drumstick, but I suspect that is harder to find a luthier interested in doing and it may not be necessary vs tuning the after lengths.

 

[Opus_Pocus]

After many attempts at soundpost adjustment, afterlength fiddling, and other wolf eliminator products, the only thing that worked for me is the Wolf Terminator posted above. I also do not like how it looks but I care more about sound than visual aesthetics.