Update On the Trace Eliott ELF That I Blew Up.

[Old Garage-Bander]

I

I do think some amps are just louder than their power ratings might have you believe, and some not even close. I once had a Sunn Concert Bass head 150watts @ 8 ohms,200@ 4 ohms that sounded okay but never was very loud in a band setting. But my 100 watt V4-B was a punchy badass that shook walls and cut through nearly any mix through the same two cabs.
Then there is the Hartke 3500 with it’s dual preamps and mosfet poweramp section that again would have you believe there is a lot more juice that the rated 350watts @ 4 ohms.
Tried an SVT 400 once. What a dog that was. Not the Ampeg sound at all and no punch. Coudn’t cut through warm butter. Not even with it’s dual poweramps bridged into mono at full power.

The amount of power used (even if the manufacturer is truthful about it) has little to do with how loud something will be.

You know that box that is at the other end of the cable that comes out of the back of the amp?
That has a bunch to do with how loud it gets.

 

[Artman]

The amount of power used (even if the manufacturer is truthful about it) has little to do with how loud something will be.

You know that box that is at the other end of the cable that comes out of the back of the amp?
That has a bunch to do with how loud it gets.

The aforementioned Sunn and Ampeg V4-B were used with the exact same cabs, but I do agree with your statement. I would bet that a TE Elf into a pair of good 410’s at 4ohms is a very different experience than the same head into a couple of compact 112’s @ same load.

 

[Red Planet]

The aforementioned Sunn and Ampeg V4-B were used with the exact same cabs, but I do agree with your statement. I would bet that a TE Elf into a pair of good 410’s at 4ohms is a very different experience than the same head into a couple of compact 112’s @ same load.

Agreed though I have played the Elf into 2 compact 112 Thiele cabs and it sounds pretty darn good and it's plenty loud with a loud drummer.

 

[Artman]

I think it’s great to have lots of headroom, but how much we really need will be different from one environmental situation to another. It’s hard to say that a particular amp isn’t going to cut it until you’ve tried it with the most appropriate speaker array.
It’s no full stack, but for guitar my little 18 watt all tube Mesa-Boogie Subway Rocket Reverb is definitely clearly audible over a relatively sane drummer. I don’t see why an Elf coupled to the right cabs wouldn’t also be loud enough in many (never said all) band situations.

 

[Artman]

I actually thought about getting an Elf last week just to experiment and see just what it could do for me, but my current old amp still does it all, so I just don’t need one.

 

[swarfrat]

The guitar has little content below 100 Hz. And it's common to operate low power amps in advanced stages of melt down. Even for guitar, 18W won't cut it clean with a loud drummer. So let's say 15w - double it for headroom (even if you want grit, you probably don't want to clip your SS power amp), then quadruple it for the higher energy under the curve for a bass guitar, and you probably need about 150W (and a similarly efficient speaker - definitely not a given) to hang with a 15w guitar amp being pushed.

 

[basscooker]

This hangs just fine with a rock trio. Average drummer and 30 watt 2x12 tube guitar rig.

Gk MB200, 8 ohm cab. The tens aren't really even that efficient ~ 90dB (maybe 96 dB cab).

In the same group I used to hang decently with my bass sharing the single 12 in a Behringer 90 watt keyboard amp as the vocals. 17x20 jam spot, carpet, drywall, sofa, high ceiling.

Every situation is different. Although I can be fine with small rigs and not much power I usually suggest minimum 1x15 and 150+ watts for rock with acoustic drums... In a rehearsal situation. How many gig situations are that intimate, though? I wouldn't want to go to a gig with too little firepower, so I see nothing at all wrong with folks suggesting lots of power and cones for any gig; even ones with good pa and sound-men. The best FOH guys will relay with tact how they want the stage volume. The smartest band members will know to listen to the guy in charge of what the audience hears.

 

[Al Kraft]

The best FOH guys will relay with tact how they want the stage volume. The smartest band members will know to listen to the guy in charge of what the audience hears.

Good advice IME. I've always believed that a venue's sound tech is as critical as any permanent band member on the day of the gig, and should be treated accordingly.

 

[aborgman]

Sorry, your 200-watt amp isn't going to keep up with your guitarist's 50-watt Marshall stack.

Eh... my 50W B-18 kept up just fine with a 100W Peavey Valveking 212 and a 50W Marshall head on a slant 4x12.

My guitarists know how to use a volume knob.

 

[MobileHolmes]

This “elf” has had a longer life here on TB than it had in real life.

Isn’t this horse dead yet.

110 device into 220 outlet.

POOF!!

No more elf.

I’m playing taps on my bass right now.

Let us ponder not the days in Elf's life, but the Life in his days

 

[BassmanPaul]

. I don't think that 400w into almost anything is going to be inadequate unless you're driving ACME's at a ManO'War concert, but they're efficiency outliers.

I drive my Acmes, one per channel, from a Class D power amp that feeds them each up to 500W. Driving all four with 1KW per channel is an experience!

 

[BassmanPaul]

Eh... my 50W B-18 kept up just fine with a 100W Peavey Valveking 212 and a 50W Marshall head on a slant 4x12.

My guitarists know how to use a volume knob.

Perhaps they forgot to plug in?

 

[swarfrat]

Let us ponder not the days in Elf's life, but the Life in his days

Indeed. It's life was but a brief flash of heat and passion. A spark that made all around itself appear as darkness. May we always be reminded of Elf's presence by the marks he left behind on each of us. (If you wish to remove these marks, try some 409 and elbow grease. )

 

[seamonkey]

If one Elf is not loud enough, carry two. Still hardly any space or weight.
Make 2x10 or a FRFR at 4 ohms a cab, and carry 2.
That would be loud with the right drivers

 

[BadExample]

I think the real question remaining here is: Which does OP regret most, burning his first and only amp, or starting his threads here?

 

[Artman]

What we really all need is to keep a handy selection of amps and cabs in order to be prepared for any situation. “Yes dear, I really do need to buy another bass amp...and more speakers too.”

 

[Artman]

This hangs just fine with a rock trio. Average drummer and 30 watt 2x12 tube guitar rig.

Gk MB200, 8 ohm cab. The tens aren't really even that efficient ~ 90dB (maybe 96 dB cab).

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In the same group I used to hang decently with my bass sharing the single 12 in a Behringer 90 watt keyboard amp as the vocals. 17x20 jam spot, carpet, drywall, sofa, high ceiling.

Every situation is different. Although I can be fine with small rigs and not much power I usually suggest minimum 1x15 and 150+ watts for rock with acoustic drums... In a rehearsal situation. How many gig situations are that intimate, though? I wouldn't want to go to a gig with too little firepower, so I see nothing at all wrong with folks suggesting lots of power and cones for any gig; even ones with good pa and sound-men. The best FOH guys will relay with tact how they want the stage volume. The smartest band members will know to listen to the guy in charge of what the audience hears.

It sounds as if your bandmates are a sensible bunch.

 

[BadExample]

Indeed. It's life was but a brief flash of heat and passion. A spark that made all around itself appear as darkness. May we always be reminded of Elf's presence by the marks he left behind on each of us. (If you wish to remove these marks, try some 409 and elbow grease. )

That Elf was a true hero. He stood up to twice his voltage as long as he could. He kept up the fight until he breathed his last smokey breath and his innards oozed out of him.

 

[swarfrat]

If one Elf is not loud enough, carry two.

Just don't get them wet or feed them after midnight. And NEVER feed them 220v.

 

[gungrog]

I

I do think some amps are just louder than their power ratings might have you believe, and some not even close. I once had a Sunn Concert Bass head 150watts @ 8 ohms,200@ 4 ohms that sounded okay but never was very loud in a band setting. But my 100 watt V4-B was a punchy badass that shook walls and cut through nearly any mix through the same two cabs.
Then there is the Hartke 3500 with it’s dual preamps and mosfet poweramp section that again would have you believe there is a lot more juice that the rated 350watts @ 4 ohms.
Tried an SVT 400 once. What a dog that was. Not the Ampeg sound at all and no punch. Coudn’t cut through warm butter. Not even with it’s dual poweramps bridged into mono at full power.

Hmm....mosfets....this thread prompted me to go hunting for the specs for the amp I was referring to above, so I could refresh my failing memories (it was 40ish years ago...) and yep, it had mosfets, it was actually rated at 250w, and there is a thread about it on here! And with a P it sure did the 'thumpity thump' sound with some style...and wasn't intimidated by a roaring Marshall stack. Memories.....

HH Electronics Bass Machine