Upgrading older computer - CPU/Ram - need some help.

[Flux Jetson]

I'm rusty as all heck with this stuff. I used to be proficient, but it's been a long while.

HAVE:
Carillon Rack Mount computer made for music studios.
2.8ghz Pentium 4.
512mb ram.
XP Home v2002 SP2
74.5MB HDD (but I have 2TB external HDD).
DAW =
** Sonar 6.3(?) Producer's Edition.
** Project 5 v2.
** T-Racks.
** Too many VSTs to remember.

I've had this system since around Y2k. It a computer in a rack chassis designed for recording studios. Convection cooled for the most part (no noisey fans), shock mounted HDDs, and XP is configured to be "optimized" for DAW use. It's served me WONDERFULLY. But it has never once been connected to the internet or a modem. I did that on purpose to prevent virus issues. Consequently all of the codecs are old as Methusela and it only has Service Pack 2.

It's been idle for about 4 years. It runs fine, I fired it up the other night, all works fine. But it's time to bring it up to speed a bit. I'd like to be able to play MP4s on it (old versions of Media Player and old codecs preventing it). More RAM would be good, too.

I'm currently uprating my outboard hardware. I just got some stuff that would rather see SP3 on the DAW. More CPU speed probably wouldn't hurt either. I'd love to do a reformattting on the HDD if possible as well. It's not acting up but I figure it wouldn't hurt to clean things up a little.

So .. where do I start? Also, I can't locate the OEM Windows XP Home boot disk, so I was considering purchasing a new copy. Why are some copies of Win XP twice the price as others? Can I use an OEM version from some other system? Do I have to use an OEM version for my own system? There's nothing specifically "Carillon" on this one that I can't do without. I have been figuring on re-installing my DAW anyhow .. some things are a bit of a mess. Need housecleaning done.

Is it difficult to install a newer/faster CPU?

Is it difficult to install more RAM?

I need to bust it open and post pics of the inside I guess, right?

HELP! So behind the times.

Thanks ...

 

[chatterbox272]

New RAM? easy done. You open it up, unclip and remove the old ram, clip in the new RAM and you're done. New CPU is a little trickier, because you have to remove and clean the heatsink, then apply thermal paste to the new CPU before you put the heatsink back on. I don't think XP is supposed to be sold anymore, but if you have a legitimate key then I don't believe obtaining a disk from the internet is illegal, as long as it isn't cracked and you use your own key. Just make sure any new components you get will fit the sockets on the motherboard you have. I've come across P4s that use the old SD RAM and others that use DDR1. There's also not much above the 2.8GHz P4, just a 3.00GHz and a 3.06GHz, neither of which will net you a significant performance gain.
If you're comfortable with it you may be better off building a new one from scratch, it's no harder really than a CPU and RAM replacement is.

 

[lhoward]

By today's hardware standards and considering the age of the system in general, I would strongly suggest a new system. There's a point where a system ceases to be usable. Since it sounds like you bought this in 2001 or 2002, you're looking at a system that's at least 10 years old. If you have the intention of trying to run current day software on that box, I think you'll be fighting a loosing battle. You could wind up throwing good money after bad. Also, there's no support for Windows XP, irregardless of the service pack. It ended 4/14/2009 for all versions and the extended support is provided only to commercial customers, not individuals. Google 'Carillon Rack Mount computer' and check some of the refs. Check with the vendor you bought it from and see what your options are with respect to an upgrade, if that's available.

I would bet that the software you have loaded on the system are versions no longer supported by the vendors. The better method of determining what to do is to check on the minimum system requirements for current software you'd like to use. I doubt you'll find XP as the minimum operating system that could support current software. Check with some recording studios and find out what they would recommend for you to consider. There are a number of forums for audio recording that you can review also. And lastly, check with schools/colleges/trade schools that have audio recording curriculum and talk with the instructors.

This is just my suggestion, but I have over 20 years of experience in network design and system integration and have butted up against the wall you're looking at. Hope you find a suitable solution.

Lloyd Howard

 

[UncleFluffy]

How much can you afford to spend on upgrades? That system is old enough that it may be a better option to replace the whole thing in one go.

 

[Flux Jetson]

New DAW software, new hardware .... what .... $1200+? I'm out.

I just took some pics of the motherboard and such ... give me a few minutes to upload everything.

As far as replacing the older Sonar DAW .. why? It still works? Why fix it if it ain't broke? I see no need to replace the DAW software "just cuz". If all I need to run a few VSTs a little more efficiently that are already on it is more RAM, why am I to spend over $1k to replace something not broken?

I'm sure I'll find out in this thread

HDD probably has less than 100 (one hundred) hours on it.

I'll be back with better info ...

 

[pnut166]

As long as you have your XP key and a disc of the same version of XP, should work fine. I think you`re not going to get much if any benefit in replacing the processor on that board. My last computer was a P4 with XP - it ran Cubase pretty darn good. Sounds like the only thing you need to do is max it out on RAM.

 

[disp]

I'm thinking of downgrading my audio box to similar era hardware.

Don't worry about the CPU, but more RAM will do you good. Open it up and see how many slots it can take. You're probably running DDR1. Hope they still sell the stuff! Shoot for maybe 2 gigs. 1 will do if its expensive, and it may well be.

Make sure all your software is accounted for before reformatting. None of this is worth the trouble if not. You should be able to download most everything you need from another computer to update it after reformatting. However, you may have to connect to the internet to reauthorize this and that. Do so with the firewall on while its online. If you need an AntiVirus program, Microsoft Security Essentials is both free and light weight.

You don't want to throw a bunch of money at this machine. I know how these things snowball.

 

[UncleFluffy]

New DAW software, new hardware .... what .... $1200+? I'm out.

Sonar 6 Producer to Sonar X1 Producer upgrade would be $199, X1 is very nice but you're right, not essential if 6 does all you need.

Same HD case etc but a new meatier motherboard/RAM/CPU ... $2-400 depending on how fancy you want to go.

Bigger HD? Another $60-100.

Case? $20-200 depending on how many shiny things and lights you want.

 

[Flux Jetson]

main board id info

More main board info ..

CPU fan type...

rear panel...

video board and (I think) a firewire board with 3 sockets

rear panel shot #2 ..

front panel ...

one other Intel chip (??)

** I have a legit product key, with barcode, still on the chassis.
** the four RAM sockets say "Channel A DIMM0 - Channel A DIMM1 - Channel B DIMM0 - Channel B DIMM1". Only one RAM socket is currently being used (Ch A DIMM0), the other three are vacant.
** CPU socket = mPGA 478
** Main board is an Intel (if that makes any difference) see pics.
** CPU is an Intel Pent4.
** System was purchased in 2004.
** has ~roughly~ 150 hours on it (I know I said 100 hours but I think that was too conservative). 200 max.
** 320 watt PSU.
** four USB 2.0 sockets.

I bought and installed all of the VST and DAW software after I bought the system. I have every original disk and all legit serial numbers/activation codes. All my ASIO drivers are compatible with the OS on the system and everything works fine. I'm using flat screen monitors with no problems. HDD seems to be wortking fine, I just removed some old/crappy/unused software and compressed the drive .. no issues, all was well.

So why is it that you say I need a new system? I think I've provided everthing you need to know here to make that assessment, if not tell me and I'll retrieve the info.

All I was wnating to do was put newer codecs on it and perhaps install more RAM. If upgrading the CPU from 2.8 to 3.? ghz won't really realize any perceived speed increases, I'll leave that be. All I'm looking at doing here is adding RAM and maybe updating the codecs and maybe later versions of things like Media Player to be able to play MP4 videos.

Other than that, what reason do I have to spend $?K on an entirely new system? I have a new piece of hardware (controller keyboard by Novation .. the Impulse) that prefers SP3 but lists XPHome as the OS that works just fine. One new softsynth wants SP3 as well (Arturia Oberheim SEM). I can't upload SP3 onto this sytem? (btw, I'm already running several Arturia softsynths.)

If I did build a new system, I'd rather just install new motherboard and other hardware, this chassis is fine and plenty large (4u rack). Or is there some reason that would have to be changed? It seems large enough to handle a new m-board. I think anyhow.

Ok .. there's the whole works.

Thanks...

WOA! We just had an Earthquake! It was a little one .. them things give me the heebie geebies!

 

[Flux Jetson]

Sonar 6 Producer to Sonar X1 Producer upgrade would be $199, X1 is very nice but you're right, not essential if 6 does all you need.

Same HD case etc but a new meatier motherboard/RAM/CPU ... $2-400 depending on how fancy you want to go.

Bigger HD? Another $60-100.

Case? $20-200 depending on how many shiny things and lights you want.

I have 2 TB of external USB 2.0 HDs. I use them to back up sessions. I think I forgot to mention that.

 

[lhoward]

New DAW software, new hardware .... what .... $1200+? I'm out.

I just took some pics of the motherboard and such ... give me a few minutes to upload everything.

As far as replacing the older Sonar DAW .. why? It still works? Why fix it if it ain't broke? I see no need to replace the DAW software "just cuz". If all I need to run a few VSTs a little more efficiently that are already on it is more RAM, why am I to spend over $1k to replace something not broken?

I'm sure I'll find out in this thread

HDD probably has less than 100 (one hundred) hours on it.

I'll be back with better info ...

Ok, if it ain't broke and it works fine, why bother doing anything to it except upgrade the RAM, which is always the first consideration to improve performance on a Windows box. Checking RAM prices for 512MB/2GB shows about $40/$120 respectively.

I did a little research on the AC1 and it seems to be a very specialized system for DAW. Before buying RAM, it might be a good idea to contact them and ask about what they recommend for upgrading the RAM.

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Even though its way out of warranty, using their recommendations might possibly preclude any unexpected results. Sorry I didn't say this earlier, but it sounded like you wanted to have a system that was at current standards so you could get some work done. I noticed that the warranty is not transferable, which tells me they consider it pretty proprietary. I personally don't like those type of warranties, but they are used by some companies, and since this company is across the pond in England, it might be a valid concern for them in providing support to the original owner. Also, although I could not find a link to download a copy of the users manual, or some type of manual for the AC1, there must be something that came with the unit when you bought it that might have recommendations about upgrading the RAM. Maybe this might help simplify the process.

Lloyd Howard

 

[Flux Jetson]

Seems it's still a valid system with Carillon!

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I'll contact them with the SN (engraved on the front panel) and see if there is anything else they can tell me about this thing. I'm the original owner it's just that it's been a while since I used it (life, health issues, more life, and of course the ever present "et al".) Recorded over 250+ songs with it ... full blown productions. Just the last 4 years or so have been .. well ... let's just call it a rough patch. Recently I've changed doctors (stopped using the VA) and my life started improving nearly immediately.

Anyhow, I hope to be recording again soon! I have THREE M-Audio Audiophile USB interfaces .. yea, I know .. not quite "top drawer" AIs but they're what I have. And their ASIO drivers work fine with Sonar Producer 6.3. So maybe I can get this old pickup truck of a system going smoothly again.

I also have four Dell desktop systems, and three Dell laptops. All XPs, some SP2s, some SP3s. All Intel P4s running from 1.8ghz all the way to 2.8 ghz. The slower one will work fine for simple stuff/midi sequencing. I got too many danged computers.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Ok, if it ain't broke and it works fine, why bother doing anything to it except upgrade the RAM, which is always the first consideration to improve performance on a Windows box. Checking RAM prices for 512MB/2GB shows about $40/$120 respectively.

I did a little research on the AC1 and it seems to be a very specialized system for DAW. Before buying RAM, it might be a good idea to contact them and ask about what they recommend for upgrading the RAM.

Invalid Link Removed

Even though its way out of warranty, using their recommendations might possibly preclude any unexpected results. Sorry I didn't say this earlier, but it sounded like you wanted to have a system that was at current standards so you could get some work done. I noticed that the warranty is not transferable, which tells me they consider it pretty proprietary. I personally don't like those type of warranties, but they are used by some companies, and since this company is across the pond in England, it might be a valid concern for them in providing support to the original owner. Also, although I could not find a link to download a copy of the users manual, or some type of manual for the AC1, there must be something that came with the unit when you bought it that might have recommendations about upgrading the RAM. Maybe this might help simplify the process.

Lloyd Howard

Thanks Lloyd. All OMs were on-line. I was typing while you were typing ... seems we both located Carillon. When I bought the system they were located in New Jersey, the "quick start" paper manual even has a NJ telephone number for support. I guess they didn't like NJ and scrammed back to the UK! Haahaa!

Anyhow I'll do what you said and contact Carillon.

What do you mean by non-transferable warranty? And how would that affect me?

 

[chadds]

The best thing I've found is to select software then hardware. For me there comes a time when the software doesn't do it. You have to upgrade. Conversely the market wants you to buy a new machine. Sometimes upgrading can mean all or some of your peripherals might not work. Keeping an old machine running with old software that works for you is to me effective. Until it doesn't.

 

[lhoward]

Thanks Lloyd. All OMs were on-line. I was typing while you were typing ... seems we both located Carillon. When I bought the system they were located in New Jersey, the "quick start" paper manual even has a NJ telephone number for support. I guess they didn't like NJ and scrammed back to the UK! Haahaa!

Anyhow I'll do what you said and contact Carillon.

What do you mean by non-transferable warranty? And how would that affect me?

Actually it wouldn't since you're the original owner, but its in the last line of their support page:
Invalid Link Removed

For me, its all in how they treat their long-standing customers. I hadn't checked your profile before, but I still go the VA and "so far so good". I think that's what the guy said when he fell off a 100 story building and a man on the 50th floor asked him how its going as he passed by. I mention that cause no one knows what's around the corner. I hope your situation improves. Anyway, it sounds like just a memory upgrade and check things with Carillon and you should be good to go. You've done a lot of recording. I've done very little, mostly gigs whenever I can.

Lloyd

 

[UncleFluffy]

So why is it that you say I need a new system? I think I've provided everthing you need to know here to make that assessment, if not tell me and I'll retrieve the info.

We recently upgraded our home studio PC to get the latency down low enough to monitor through the PC and get a good number of real-time effects in the monitor. The old system was dropping out all the time, the new one purrs along at less than 10% CPU.

If what you have now is enough - and the only critical thing is really latency and real-time effect/synth performance - then no need to upgrade. If it isn't enough, then it's likely that you'll get more performance for the same amount of money by replacing the guts with something newer than by making piecemeal improvements to an old system.

(That said, if you're happy with pre-loved parts, upgrade parts for a system that old will be pretty easy to find. I'm sure someone on TB has stuff in their spares bin that would suit.)

All I was wnating to do was put newer codecs on it and perhaps install more RAM. If upgrading the CPU from 2.8 to 3.? ghz won't really realize any perceived speed increases, I'll leave that be.

CPU would give you maybe a little bit, but my guess would be in the 10-20% range.

Other than that, what reason do I have to spend $?K on an entirely new system? I have a new piece of hardware (controller keyboard by Novation .. the Impulse) that prefers SP3 but lists XPHome as the OS that works just fine. One new softsynth wants SP3 as well (Arturia Oberheim SEM). I can't upload SP3 onto this sytem? (btw, I'm already running several Arturia softsynths.)

I'm sorry that I misunderstood - I thought that you were talking mainly about hardware upgrades. If the box you have will run the software you want fast enough, then no need for an upgrade.

If you're close to the performance you need (like "if this thing ran 30% faster" close) then you might be able to squeeze that out of it with some well-chosen upgrades.

More than that and it'll be time for a new motherboard/CPU/RAM.

 

[UncleFluffy]

Here's the Intel data for RAM compatible with that motherboard:

Link Removed

 

[darius8]

The first thing I'd do is check to see if the RAM slots are still supported by any RAM makers. If they don't, forget about upgrading this motherboard. I say this becuz even if your able to upgrade everything except the RAM it's not even worth the effort.
The different RAM slots are: 100 pin DIMM, 168 pin SDRAM, 184 pin DDR, 184 pin RDRAM, 240 pin DDR2, 240 pin DDR3. ect...

A 2.8 Ghz CPU chip is still do-able. It's plenty fast for right now.
How is the harddrive hooked up, IDE, ATA, SATA, ect...?

 

[chatterbox272]

Other than that, what reason do I have to spend $?K on an entirely new system?

Because as has been mentioned, another 2GB of the RAM you need will probably cost ~$100. For $100 here in Australia (where everything costs much more) I can get a cheap motherboard, 2GB of RAM, and a dual core processor. You said you're not worried about the size of your hard drive and the case and PSU are perfectly okay to reuse. So if you spend $100 on upgrading RAM you will have an outdated system that's absolutely maxed. Spend $100 on a small build like that and you have a low-medium spec'd build (still much more powerful than what you have) with potential to upgrade again later on, keeping your system alive even longer.

CPU would give you maybe a little bit, but my guess would be in the 10-20% range.

Mathematically its ~9%, practically it's near unnoticeable unless you're running benchmarks.

 

[UncleFluffy]

Mathematically its ~9%, practically it's near unnoticeable unless you're running benchmarks.

I was working with the numbers for a 3.4G P4EE, which clocks about 20% faster and has a chunk more L2 cache. But you wouldn't be able to get the most out of it due to the limits from the rest of the system.

(Of course, just because it's a socket 478 board doesn't mean the chipset is compatible, hard to tell without doing some more digging).