Thanks to all. Mike A & Ric, thanks for adding some new thoughts to this discussion. Ric, I'm not sure what they'll have available at these gigs in terms of bass amps. They may not even have a 4x10. I'll be certain to call ahead and get some info. Like I said before, I don't think the LittleMark and single Wizzy 12 will give me enough stage prescence in an open air environment. Maybe I'll get another Wizzy 12 and stack them. Of course stacking two 4ohm cabs will not allow me to use that LittleMark head, so I'll need another amp. The quest for good tone is sometimes difficult.
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Double Bass Upright amplification on a Big Stage???
- Thread starter Lorenzo
- Start date
Lorenzo,
It's always a bit of a challenge to anticipate what's going to be available and how easy it will be to get to. You're probably right about the Wizzy 12 not being enough to hear on stage. I once tried to use a single EA VL 110 on a small stage and it just wouldn't keep up even though I had a Walter Woods Ultra driving the cabinet. I'm not convinced yet that moving to the 2 ohm load with two cabinets works any better either. That's unexplored territory for me. IMHO, playing outside is not where I like to be. Give me walls
Ric
Just remember that just as your low end air is scooting out all sides of that wall-less stage, so is everyone else's. I can set up my little GK 150MBE onstage within about 10ft of a very loud drummer and still be able to hear myself fine. And I know exactly what to expect out of it. By adding extra cabinets and power, you're just making yourself more susceptible to feedback. In other words, think small and let the suond guy worry about filling the stadium. At least, that's what's working really well for me recently.
I agree 1000% with Kev2007. You want to use a small amp, and maybe even put it up on top of something to keep it close to your head. Stacks and big cabinets + upright bass are a recipe for feedback. This may sound strange, but you should also bring some extra socks. I have had some really bad feedback that could only be tamed by wrapping a sock around the tailpiece.
My big stage experience is with the group pictured in the avatar playing festival stages. It's an acoustic band playing Greek and Arabic music. So we're all being mic'd and playing ampless.
Sometimes you get a good crew that knows how to work with acoustic music. Other times they want it to sound like a rock show with massive bass in the FOH. I think that contributes to feedback problems with the other acoustic instruments because of how loud they have to be relative to the massive bass lows with the rock show FOH crew. Too much low end can ruin an acoustic show. So far I have had very little problem with feedback in this band. The oud/baglama/bouzouki player can be a nightmare though.
I have a Realist and Upton pup on my bass. Sometimes I like one over the other but, time permitting I'll let the sound guy try each one and see how it sounds in the monitors. I also bring my AMT mic and find that most sound guys love being able to play with the piezo and the AMT and get a good blend.
My experience on big stages with the music the OP is playing is limited but I expect I would take my tc electronics RH450 and 212 and use that as a stage monitor. I'd also take the AMT and send direct to FOH
Sometimes you get a good crew that knows how to work with acoustic music. Other times they want it to sound like a rock show with massive bass in the FOH. I think that contributes to feedback problems with the other acoustic instruments because of how loud they have to be relative to the massive bass lows with the rock show FOH crew. Too much low end can ruin an acoustic show. So far I have had very little problem with feedback in this band. The oud/baglama/bouzouki player can be a nightmare though.
I have a Realist and Upton pup on my bass. Sometimes I like one over the other but, time permitting I'll let the sound guy try each one and see how it sounds in the monitors. I also bring my AMT mic and find that most sound guys love being able to play with the piezo and the AMT and get a good blend.
My experience on big stages with the music the OP is playing is limited but I expect I would take my tc electronics RH450 and 212 and use that as a stage monitor. I'd also take the AMT and send direct to FOH
I'm awfully shy about adding my opinions and experiences after such talented bassists have spoken, but here's what has worked for me:
Full Circle Pickup
F-deck High-pass filter
Walter Woods Ultra
Epifani 2x10 or 3x10
Line out to a Radial JDI direct box for connections to FOH
Here's why I think it works:
The high pass filter is not that important to me most of the time but on big stages with rock and roll sound expectations I simply have to cut some of the lows to avoid feedback through the mains. Those mains will reproduce WAY more sub-sonics than anything any of us are willing to lug around, so expect the PA to reproduce low end material that you never ever heard through your amp before. The signal hasn't changed. The amps we carry around just don't reproduce much below 60 hz. That and the fact that many (but not all) live sound engineers think that the Bass Drum is the most important instrument on the stage...)
If your amp doesn't have a variable hi-pass filter built in, then I strongly recommend the under $50 one that Talkbasser F-deck sells. It does the trick. It sounds much better than simply turning the bass knob on your amp down.
The Walter woods head has been talked to death in other threads. Yes it's expensive. Yes there are other options out there now (there didn't use to be!) I double on electric a lot and the woods works well with both.
The Epifani UL3x10 cab is the loudest thing that I can still carry with one hand. Some things sound better for electric bass some things are a little more neutral for upright but this does pretty darn well for both.
I currently don't send a microphone to the FOH. The only mics I like are way to expensive and sensitive to use in these situations- but I'm always looking for one that I like. The above set-up is for sending the pick up to both a stage amp and the FOH. If I did use a mic I would probably use an H-clamp stand and a dynamic mic such as a sennheiser or Heil. Most sound engineers don't want to deal with a mic, or want to take both signals anyway in my experience.
Lastly, I have one more recommendation: Lower your expectations.
Getting a great amplified sound in these sorts of situations is a tall order. Getting a clear (but perhaps not at all natural) sound without feedback is the best place to start. Then worry about sounding like NHOP...
Full Circle Pickup
F-deck High-pass filter
Walter Woods Ultra
Epifani 2x10 or 3x10
Line out to a Radial JDI direct box for connections to FOH
Here's why I think it works:
The high pass filter is not that important to me most of the time but on big stages with rock and roll sound expectations I simply have to cut some of the lows to avoid feedback through the mains. Those mains will reproduce WAY more sub-sonics than anything any of us are willing to lug around, so expect the PA to reproduce low end material that you never ever heard through your amp before. The signal hasn't changed. The amps we carry around just don't reproduce much below 60 hz. That and the fact that many (but not all) live sound engineers think that the Bass Drum is the most important instrument on the stage...)
If your amp doesn't have a variable hi-pass filter built in, then I strongly recommend the under $50 one that Talkbasser F-deck sells. It does the trick. It sounds much better than simply turning the bass knob on your amp down.
The Walter woods head has been talked to death in other threads. Yes it's expensive. Yes there are other options out there now (there didn't use to be!) I double on electric a lot and the woods works well with both.
The Epifani UL3x10 cab is the loudest thing that I can still carry with one hand. Some things sound better for electric bass some things are a little more neutral for upright but this does pretty darn well for both.
I currently don't send a microphone to the FOH. The only mics I like are way to expensive and sensitive to use in these situations- but I'm always looking for one that I like. The above set-up is for sending the pick up to both a stage amp and the FOH. If I did use a mic I would probably use an H-clamp stand and a dynamic mic such as a sennheiser or Heil. Most sound engineers don't want to deal with a mic, or want to take both signals anyway in my experience.
Lastly, I have one more recommendation: Lower your expectations.
Getting a great amplified sound in these sorts of situations is a tall order. Getting a clear (but perhaps not at all natural) sound without feedback is the best place to start. Then worry about sounding like NHOP...
My setup is the same for small and large venues: Me, my carved upright, my GK150mb and Realist pickup. I take a DI out from the amp and let the sound engineer do his job.
When I had a 200MB I used the GK microphone mount stand to get the amp at ear level. It actually worked fairly well, because that put the cabinet right at the ear level of the rhythm section. It's like having a kind of like the using a Yamaha Stage Pass with a little better bass response.
Ric
One of the main factors here is the quality of the PA system. Good system has only little bleed back into the stage - you don't hear too much sound coming from the back of the speakers.
Recently I was playing a big stage and the bleed was so loud that I thought I was hearing monitors. Of course I was getting a low frequency feedback - from the mains, not from monitors. I pull out my fdeck little device and switching the phase helped quite a lot, the rest of the problem was solved by the sound guy cutting the low frequencies a little.
Recently I was playing a big stage and the bleed was so loud that I thought I was hearing monitors. Of course I was getting a low frequency feedback - from the mains, not from monitors. I pull out my fdeck little device and switching the phase helped quite a lot, the rest of the problem was solved by the sound guy cutting the low frequencies a little.
Kind of hard to argue with that, esp. if a mic is not available.
************************************************
For some reason, this discussion (which is great!) reminded me of this old AI newsletter. I am referring to the last section titled A Note from Rick. May not strictly apply to the situation Lorenzo will find himself in, but I always draw from it and nod my head in agreement when I (re)read it.
I haven't played too many large venue gigs with my DB, but the best results I had were to run my bass into my Fishman Pro Plat, which ran a DI to the house and a 1/4" out to the backline amp, which was some sort of 15" combo. I was able to get a workable sound onstage, and I can only hope I sounded good out in the house!
There is definitely something to be said for letting the sound guy do his job. I just try to make sure there is a mic in addition to line out for FOH so he has options. You amp is your monitor.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
- 8,953
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
- 8,953
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Just to throw more fuel on the fire, Neal Miner tours with Jane Monheit, they play large venues (including outdoors) and he still does not use any amp.
I'm too much of a nancy-boy to pull that off. I've played the NoAmp at some small gigs, and played around a single mic (a stringband favorite!), but after a certain point I need the support of at least a little amplification. A big club or outdoors without an amp is out of the question for me, unless I want the band but not the audience to hear me!
That said, I'm always impressed with the pros who can do that!
That said, I'm always impressed with the pros who can do that!
Lots of great suggestions, I have played fairly large outside festivals almost exclusively and pretty much have always had the best luck using my GK MB150S as my monitor in behind me and use the post eq 1/4 inch out jack and line out direct to the board.
I've been using a LR Baggs Para pre-amp for the last year as it gives me a few more options and eq settings so I'm hearing what I want to hear on stage.
Ran the rig with monitors and without depending on the stage construction and its sound characteristics.
As others have said using the Post EQ when lining it to the board usually sound pretty good in the house as the sound guy is getting a good sound signal when he has his board flat.
Adding a little compression to the signal and it's usually pretty darn good.
Never had much luck using a mic as now you are at the mercy of the sound guy and his abilities along with the stage construction and its sound characteristics being the dominant factor in your head room volume and eq settings.
For the record outside gigs are usually easier not worse than inside gigs which add the room characteristics and bouncing off hard surfaces into the equation...
Your set up will be fine, perhaps have a band mate pop out into the audience during your set up time and have a listen and you and the sound man can tweak together to get a decent sound in the house.
I've been using a LR Baggs Para pre-amp for the last year as it gives me a few more options and eq settings so I'm hearing what I want to hear on stage.
Ran the rig with monitors and without depending on the stage construction and its sound characteristics.
As others have said using the Post EQ when lining it to the board usually sound pretty good in the house as the sound guy is getting a good sound signal when he has his board flat.
Adding a little compression to the signal and it's usually pretty darn good.
Never had much luck using a mic as now you are at the mercy of the sound guy and his abilities along with the stage construction and its sound characteristics being the dominant factor in your head room volume and eq settings.
For the record outside gigs are usually easier not worse than inside gigs which add the room characteristics and bouncing off hard surfaces into the equation...
Your set up will be fine, perhaps have a band mate pop out into the audience during your set up time and have a listen and you and the sound man can tweak together to get a decent sound in the house.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
- 8,953
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Let me throw this out for discussion....
For years I have used my BassMax with the LR Baggs ParaAcoustic-DI or Fishman ProPlat into the PA board (I don't use an amp) ....when there is a sound tech.
I usually add some bass and roll off the treble using the pre-amp 'cos I like a big fat sound.
I also ask the sound tech for the same thing.
I suppose I have taken all this for granted and never really gave much thought to whether this is the best way to do things.
I am now thinking that, in effect, what I am doing is running my sound through two EQ systems..my pre-amp and the PA board.
Is this a good thing? Can one EQ setting affect another..for good or bad?
I have no control over the end result and do not have time during a set to stop and work with the tech to make corrections.
So......
-should I run my pre-amp flat into the PA board and just let the sound tech make any adjustments for my "big, fat sound"?
If so...why even bother with a pre-amp (for a single channel input) and instead just use the sound tech's onstage DI box? Would that not serve the overall sound signal better?
- or should I ask the sound tech to leave all the PA controls flat ( that would probably drive them crazy!) and just use my pre-amp for controlling the sound?
Thoughts?
For years I have used my BassMax with the LR Baggs ParaAcoustic-DI or Fishman ProPlat into the PA board (I don't use an amp) ....when there is a sound tech.
I usually add some bass and roll off the treble using the pre-amp 'cos I like a big fat sound.
I also ask the sound tech for the same thing.
I suppose I have taken all this for granted and never really gave much thought to whether this is the best way to do things.
I am now thinking that, in effect, what I am doing is running my sound through two EQ systems..my pre-amp and the PA board.
Is this a good thing? Can one EQ setting affect another..for good or bad?
I have no control over the end result and do not have time during a set to stop and work with the tech to make corrections.
So......
-should I run my pre-amp flat into the PA board and just let the sound tech make any adjustments for my "big, fat sound"?
If so...why even bother with a pre-amp (for a single channel input) and instead just use the sound tech's onstage DI box? Would that not serve the overall sound signal better?
- or should I ask the sound tech to leave all the PA controls flat ( that would probably drive them crazy!) and just use my pre-amp for controlling the sound?
Thoughts?
Yeah probably- what sounds good to you on stage in your single 12" monitor may not work well with multiple amps, crossovers and speakers of a big PA that has been tuned to a particular room/ space.
Double basses with piezo pickups normally require high impedance (around 1 million ohms) active DI boxes/ preamps to sound their best. A normal unpowered DI box may make your double bass sound weedy and thin.
If the sound guy/gal has good powered DI's then try them and compare to your DI.
They would have to be crazy to do that!
Communication is key- let the sound person hear your bass acoustically and ask them to make it sound like that. I find a lot of sound people love the sub bass from piezos- ask them to roll it off.
