Actually due to temperament, a fretted bass is slightly out of tune depending on the scale and interval you’re playing. Only fret less instruments can play the right note whatever scale/interval.
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Upright Bass Sound in a Pedal
- Thread starter Bobby Bass
- Start date
I play Double Bass and do use a Frettless Lakland Skyline 55-94 on gigs that might be the pervue of "upright players". The closest thing I've heard to a Double Bass is the Takimine.
It's over $3,000.00 dollars, part of the sound of a Double Bass is in it's hollow sound chamber, curved fingerboard, raised bridge, and a floating tailpiece. I know
of no pedal that will do that. There are mega samples of Double Bassists that will faithfully reproduce the timbre of a DB as well. This or a Rob Allen is as close as it gets.
Just my take of course but there's a picture of my instrument below the youtube clip
of the Takamine.
It's over $3,000.00 dollars, part of the sound of a Double Bass is in it's hollow sound chamber, curved fingerboard, raised bridge, and a floating tailpiece. I know
of no pedal that will do that. There are mega samples of Double Bassists that will faithfully reproduce the timbre of a DB as well. This or a Rob Allen is as close as it gets.
Just my take of course but there's a picture of my instrument below the youtube clip
of the Takamine.
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I hear what you are saying, but disagree. Fretted instruments are not "out of tune" but rather "tuned to a different standard." There always has been (and probably always will be) more than one "correct" way to tune a musical instrument. 12-tone equal temperment is pretty well-established as one possible definition of "in tune" by this point in history.
I wasn't totally kidding about my "putting the strings slightly out of tune" comment, either. It's pretty common among acoustic guitarists (and especially 12-string players) that they might tune differently depending on the key of the song. For example they might tune the B string slightly differently if it is the 5th of E major vs. the 3rd of G major. I think that's what you're getting at with "depending on the scale and interval you're playing." I don't know a lot of bassists who follow this practice. I do recall reading an article about Will Lee, where a producer mentioned him tuning slightly flat and then bending notes up to pitch, to compensate for a poorly set-up loaner bass. On a fretless he never would have had that problem!
I think you are getting at a real kernel of truth, that when people long for an "old-time upright bass" sound, part of what gives it that feel is the "warmth" or "blurriness" of pitch you hear on old recordings. It's like you say, with a fretless instrument like upright bass or fretless electric, your choice of intonation can make or break the sound of the whole band. If you hit the "just" or "harmonically perfect" pitch (which might be a little sharp or flat compared to a fretted or "Precision" bass) then the harmony of the entire ensemble sounds a little sweeter. I did some a capela singing in school, and there was this legendary "barbershop chord" that we never quite figured out. Supposedly if you hit it just right (a little out of tune compared to a piano or fretted instrument) then it sounds like there is a fifth singer in the group.
So yeah, long-winded way of describing what I love about fretless instruments.
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I developed audio processing gear for many years - we can do this if there is enough interest. Let me know.
FYI - A U-Bass is not the solution - it just sounds like a muddy electric bass. Fretless basses give you mwah, but not the real dynamic mids of a fretless.
I had a Timber Bass from Magic Fluke company that was sub short scale with bridge piezo and special rounds, and REALLY sounded like an upright, but they did nothing to compensate for the HUGE amount of finger noise picked up by the piezo. There should have been a notch fllter in the preamp. I dumped it.
Again - if this would be a viable product you would buy - let me know, and what you would pay for it. I have considered this for years and really know how to do it. It involves dynamic compression, envelope shaping and EQ in various bands done very carefully and can now be done easily in a DSP with the proper algorithm.
FYI - A U-Bass is not the solution - it just sounds like a muddy electric bass. Fretless basses give you mwah, but not the real dynamic mids of a fretless.
I had a Timber Bass from Magic Fluke company that was sub short scale with bridge piezo and special rounds, and REALLY sounded like an upright, but they did nothing to compensate for the HUGE amount of finger noise picked up by the piezo. There should have been a notch fllter in the preamp. I dumped it.
Again - if this would be a viable product you would buy - let me know, and what you would pay for it. I have considered this for years and really know how to do it. It involves dynamic compression, envelope shaping and EQ in various bands done very carefully and can now be done easily in a DSP with the proper algorithm.
I think we agree on most points you developed, except :
See for example this post about how violin players tune depending on when they play with equal temperament instruments or other 'just' instruments.
violin tuning, Just & Equal Temperaments
Some tuners (e.g. Peterson) make it possible to tune to different temperaments so you can switch temperament between songs depending on the scale they're in. But is it worth the trouble ? I suppose in the low-end we're less sensitive to tuning (but maybe I'm wrong because of harmonics).
Notes in a scale are mathematically and exactly defined. There is no 'alternate standard' possibility. There is a precise definition of tuning and our ears expect notes to follow this rule. You can't have the proper tuning on a fretted/keyboard instrument so you have to make compromises (a temperament). Equal temperament is what 'works' best in any key AFAIK (there are many temperaments and equal temperament didn't stop people proposing more). We're now so used to equal temperament that we probably now accept even expect its quirks.
See for example this post about how violin players tune depending on when they play with equal temperament instruments or other 'just' instruments.
violin tuning, Just & Equal Temperaments
Once you're tuned to be closer to correct tuning in a key(s), then (an)other key(s) take the hit. I read that at Bach's time different church organs were tuned to different key (so pieces probably had to be transposed to sound about right ?). You can quickly retune a guitar, a church organ not so much ! Hence the interest for a 'works for all keys' temperament.
Some tuners (e.g. Peterson) make it possible to tune to different temperaments so you can switch temperament between songs depending on the scale they're in. But is it worth the trouble ? I suppose in the low-end we're less sensitive to tuning (but maybe I'm wrong because of harmonics).
Ok, I'll play as well: play on the fingerboard, use the pads of your fingers or the side of your finger to pluck, EQ in some bass and some treble, roll off some of your tone, use reverb and so on.
You are giving an impression of an upright bass, not trying to mimic one. The audience will not care.
You are giving an impression of an upright bass, not trying to mimic one. The audience will not care.
FWIW, I always thought a great upright-type sound, is "Moondance", altho' it's actually electric bass. I guess it's just how he plays it ...
Try using a fretless with flats, use a sponge mute and play over the fingerboard. Adjust tone as needed.
Closest I’ve heard is a Gold Tone Microbass, but as Bassomatic said, there is finger noise that gets in the way.
My favorite uprightish sound is probably Chris Brubeck playing his fretless Rickenbacker. It doesn’t really sound like an upright, but it has enough of those qualities to work in a similar context.
Closest I’ve heard is a Gold Tone Microbass, but as Bassomatic said, there is finger noise that gets in the way.
My favorite uprightish sound is probably Chris Brubeck playing his fretless Rickenbacker. It doesn’t really sound like an upright, but it has enough of those qualities to work in a similar context.
That's so nice! I have done some experimenting clamping a piezo onto my basses, and most of this great sound comes from the piezo. The physical vibrations are so different than the magnetic! I wonder what kind of strings he is using??
This guy built a fretless bass from scratch with leftover lumber and uses only a piezo - Take a listen.
This guy built a fretless bass from scratch with leftover lumber and uses only a piezo - Take a listen.
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Now there is the Boss SY-1000 synth and modeling unit, which does a really nice acoustic bass, plys many otherbbas models.
I'm trying to find a standalone pedal but thought I would comment that the zoom A1 four has a great upright simulator. You may not want to have an acoustic guitar pedal though. There's the Zoom Effect Manager that allows you to put effects from the same series so you can put it on the B1 four.
I've said this many times, that in my experience and opinion the exact tone quality is not what's key to using electric bass in place of upright, it's what you play and how you play it. (Pizz applications only being considered.)
So, this thread got me thinking last night. Before they were really considered for capturing speaker cabinets, impulse responses were used for capturing acoustic spaces. You know what's an acoustic space? Yup, the inside of an upright!
I got the Sonic IR for Christmas this last year. It does a pretty good job with speaker sim. However, I found a free impulse response on the Fractal Audio forum. Thread states that these are specifically for Fractal devices but it's just a wav in a special container format. The Sonic IR has to have a 24bit file at 44100 sampling rate and 23ms long. I imported the file as raw data into Audacity, trimmed it and exported to the correct format and, bingo! It worked! Sounds REALLY good too!
forum.fractalaudio.com
If you have a IR loader of some kind, I'd say make sure it's formatted to what ever your loader requires and have a go of it! I kinda want a fretless now to make the effect even better! 3 Sigma Audio has a bunch of IRs of various uprights for $15 a pop but this one does such a good job of it for live use!
I got the Sonic IR for Christmas this last year. It does a pretty good job with speaker sim. However, I found a free impulse response on the Fractal Audio forum. Thread states that these are specifically for Fractal devices but it's just a wav in a special container format. The Sonic IR has to have a 24bit file at 44100 sampling rate and 23ms long. I imported the file as raw data into Audacity, trimmed it and exported to the correct format and, bingo! It worked! Sounds REALLY good too!
Free Upright Bass IRs
So for the two other people out there that use Fractal gear for double bass, I just did a tonematch of my Shen with Bel Cantos through a Full Cricle pickup versus three mics (using the Slate ML1 and ML2s). They turned out really great! I made an IR for pizz and a separate one for arco (using a...
If you have a IR loader of some kind, I'd say make sure it's formatted to what ever your loader requires and have a go of it! I kinda want a fretless now to make the effect even better! 3 Sigma Audio has a bunch of IRs of various uprights for $15 a pop but this one does such a good job of it for live use!
