Double Bass Upright vs. electric vs. guitar strings

[shivasage]

Hi everyone. I'm curious about how electric guitar strings compare to bass strings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have learned there are more similarities between electric guitar and upright strings than between electric guitar and electric bass strings. This seems counterintuitive, but of course it can be verified with one's ear. Although an e.bass's tone can be modified heavily with the tone controls and/or amp, still I would say its 'fundamental' tone (whatever that means), is more bass heavy than an upright, which, though of course bassy, perhaps has more high frequency content.

Anyway, is there something to do with the construction of upright vs electric strings that can account for this? And on top of that, because there are quite varied types of upright string, which would be most similar to an electric guitar string?

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I don’t know who told you that, but you should never listen to them again.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Well, there's two types of bass guitar string, flatwound and roundwound. I suppose you could say that flatwound BG strings are somewhat similar to Double Bass strings, and that roundwound BG strings are more like guitar strings. But i cannot imagine how anyone would think a guitar string is more like a DB string than a BG string - even taking into account that each instrument has many types of strings, it's hard to make sense of a statement like this.

 

[Don Hergert]

You don't find too many people using guitar strings on a double bass... Or for that matter, BG strings on an double bass. They are completely different animals, and their strings are similarly completely different in both construction and purpose.

And generally, prices sort of support that. A person can easily spend $300 to $1000 on select double bass strings. That doesn't happen with guitars or BGs.

 

[shivasage]

Well, there's two types of bass guitar string, flatwound and roundwound. I suppose you could say that flatwound BG strings are somewhat similar to Double Bass strings, and that roundwound BG strings are more like guitar strings. But i cannot imagine how anyone would think a guitar string is more like a DB string than a BG string - even taking into account that each instrument has many types of strings, it's hard to make sense of a statement like this.

You don't find too many people using guitar strings on a double bass... Or for that matter, BG strings on an double bass. They are completely different animals, and their strings are similarly completely different in both construction and purpose.

And generally, prices sort of support that. A person can easily spend $300 to $1000 on select double bass strings. That doesn't happen with guitars or BGs.

The implication wasn't that, off the shelf, they're similar or interchangeable. I'm thinking more along the lines of the fundamental construction. The way I see it, string construction can be boiled down to a few parameters: 1) core shape, 2) core material, 3) winding shape, 4) winding material, 5) relative thickness of core and winding. If we decide to compare strings that are roundwound with a steel core, then we've narrowed it down to three parameters: core shape, winding material, and relative thickness of core and winding.

So, if one compares electric guitar strings with double bass and electric bass strings just based off of these three parameters, then perhaps THAT is where the double bass begins to resemble the guitar more than the electric bass? And I don't mean to say that the parameters are necessarily the same, because of course the context is totally different. Take, for example, the fact that bass strings are thicker and longer than guitar strings. If all other parameters are kept the same, then this thickness and length will have to affect the sound. Electric bass strings use a solid wire core just like guitar strings and use similar winding material as well, e.g. nickel-plated steel. But maybe the fact that double bass strings use a rope core and a non-nickel winding material counterbalances this increase in thickness and length? (I'm just thinking aloud here.) Or, similarly, maybe on an electric bass the proportional thickness between the core and the winding begins to deviate from that of a guitar as the string thickens from guitar gauges to bass gauges, but on a double bass, the proportionality is similar because of other parameters changing?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

There is a lot more difference than you may think:

Several layers of windings of different material in different shape, damping material (silk) between the layers (mostly arco and hybrid strings), other core material than metal etc.

EBG strings are a very simple construction compared to DB strings.

I once got a prototype set of DB strings from a guitar and BG string manufacturer. Looked like DB strings with a solid steel core, but sounded like a fretless BG. They constructed them like a longer flatwound BG string.
So there is more difference in construction than you may think of.

 

[shivasage]

There is a lot more difference than you may think:

Several layers of windings of different material in different shape, damping material (silk) between the layers (mostly arco and hybrid strings), other core material than metal etc.

EBG strings are a very simple construction compared to DB strings.

I once got a prototype set of DB strings from a guitar and BG string manufacturer. Looked like DB strings with a solid steel core, but sounded like a fretless BG. They constructed them like a longer flatwound BG string.
So there is more difference in construction than you may think of.

Fair enough.

Alright, well, on a similar note: What makes a piano bass string sound so much different than a double bass string, or even an electric bass string? They are comparable in length and gauge, so perhaps it is the extremely high tension that accounts for the more exaggerated mid and treble frequency content? I know some piano bass strings use steel winding so the normal copper winding can't be too much of a factor here.

 

[Papageno]

Piano strings are much thicker and have a much higher tension than those of plucked or bowed string instruments, making them much more inharmonic.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Piano strings are much thicker and have a much higher tension than those of plucked or bowed string instruments, making them much more inharmonic.

And round wound (copper?). In a way, they do not sound much diferent than new round wound EB strings (to me).

 

[equill]

Fair enough.

Alright, well, on a similar note: What makes a piano bass string sound so much different than a double bass string, or even an electric bass string? They are comparable in length and gauge, so perhaps it is the extremely high tension that accounts for the more exaggerated mid and treble frequency content? I know some piano bass strings use steel winding so the normal copper winding can't be too much of a factor here.

You'd have to string a bass with piano strings for a straight comparison, because the structural differences between the instruments would account for quite a bit, as would the fact that a piano's strings are hit with a felt-covered wooden mallet, rather than being plucked or bowed.

 

[damonsmith]

"Get a teacher"

 

[equill]

And on top of that, because there are quite varied types of upright string, which would be most similar to an electric guitar string?

On re-reading, it sounds like you're trying to go somewhere specific with this.
What problem are you trying to solve, here?

 

[shivasage]

On re-reading, it sounds like you're trying to go somewhere specific with this.
What problem are you trying to solve, here?

I'm trying to make a DIY instrument roughly based off a pedal clavichord. I'm trying to figure out what strings to use for the lowest notes, the lowest of which will be C1. I don't want these low notes to sound as 'bassy' as a bass, but brighter, like a piano or a guitar. I imagine guitar strings are brighter because they're thinner and shorter, but this won't work for low notes. I imagine piano strings are brighter because... Well, I don't know. They're longer and thicker, both of which you would expect to give a bassier sound, so it must have to do with their incredibly high tension. I am limited by length because the longest commercially available electric guitar or electric bass strings are 40" usable length (which is the low end of the spectrum of piano bass strings). I don't want extremely high tension because I'm just using wood, not a cast iron frame. I can experiment with gauge, though.

My current plan is to get a set of DR LMR5-130's and see what they sound like strung up on some zither pins 40" apart in a fence post, with a single coil guitar bridge pickup underneath, run into a guitar amp, I guess, cause I don't have a bass amp. Though I do have an acoustic guitar amp...

So yeah, I was trying to find out if upright strings would get me closer to what I'm going for than electric strings. But of course, the problem is that they're way too expensive for this phase of the project in which I'm just testing things out.

 

[equill]

I'm trying to make a DIY instrument roughly based off a pedal clavichord. I'm trying to figure out what strings to use for the lowest notes, the lowest of which will be C1. I don't want these low notes to sound as 'bassy' as a bass, but brighter, like a piano or a guitar. I imagine guitar strings are brighter because they're thinner and shorter, but this won't work for low notes. I imagine piano strings are brighter because... Well, I don't know. They're longer and thicker, both of which you would expect to give a bassier sound, so it must have to do with their incredibly high tension. I am limited by length because the longest commercially available electric guitar or electric bass strings are 40" usable length (which is the low end of the spectrum of piano bass strings). I don't want extremely high tension because I'm just using wood, not a cast iron frame. I can experiment with gauge, though.

My current plan is to get a set of DR LMR5-130's and see what they sound like strung up on some zither pins 40" apart in a fence post, with a single coil guitar bridge pickup underneath, run into a guitar amp, I guess, cause I don't have a bass amp. Though I do have an acoustic guitar amp...

So yeah, I was trying to find out if upright strings would get me closer to what I'm going for than electric strings. But of course, the problem is that they're way too expensive for this phase of the project in which I'm just testing things out.

Ah, now we can give you more useful answers.
The short answer to whether upright or electric strings will get you closer is that this is probably the wrong phase of the project to find out. A longer answer is, well, a bit longer

Regarding the problem of how to get the specific timbre you're after, you're trying to build on speculation: you're starting with the assumption that the difference is entirely in the string design, without having verified it. The best advice I can give you there is to back up a little, and frame the problem differently.

The question "what factors make the bass notes in a piano sound brighter than those of an upright bass?" will take you down fewer blind alleys, especially if you factor in the difference between the way notes are sounded on a bass, a piano and a clavichord. And that's before we get to the part where you're designing an electric instrument, but using the sound of acoustic instruments as your reference point, or the bit where neither piano strings nor (most) double-bass strings are designed for use with electromagnetic pickups. Even that question is a matter of optimisation, though, which leads to the next bit...

The best advice I can offer is to forget about string-types for now, start* with the simplest proof-of-concept prototype, learn what does and doesn't work (both in the design and in how you went about building it), then make another one that builds on what you learnt. Rinse and repeat until you're close enough for all practical purposes. At that point, compare the timbre you're getting with the timbre you want, and seek out ways to close the gap. And then you start testing alternative solutions, comparing their results, and iterating on those results. This is the point at which the differences between a piano and an acoustic guitar will come into play if they're relevant to solving the problem that you have at this point.

One way of closing that gap might be to borrow from the piano and the 12-string guitar, and put higher-tuned strings beside each of the bass strings, to add brightness synthetically. A family of other ways live in the electrical and electronic side of things, starting with the pickups, and including the part where you don't accidentally remove the brightness without realising it. And then we have the perennial tonewood debate
The speakers or headphones you listen through will also be a factor - you'll get different results just from using a bass amp, a guitar amp, or reference monitors.


*After learning as much as you can about how similar instruments are constructed. As satisfying as it can be to find all the pitfalls and climb back out of them yourself, you reach your goal much faster if you can learn from the mistakes that other people have already made.

 

[shivasage]

Ah, now we can give you more useful answers.
The short answer to whether upright or electric strings will get you closer is that this is probably the wrong phase of the project to find out. A longer answer is, well, a bit longer

Thanks for your help. You're right that I'm thinking a bit too far ahead. I do want to start with an incredibly simple prototype, but wanted to have at least a decent sense of what makes strings sound different before choosing where to start with strings. Consider this part of the research you spoke of. But you're right that, either way, these kinds of details will have to come later.

I've done a fair bit of research, including reading a couple of books on clavichords, reading step-by-step build descriptions that I found online, finding information from a composer about his decades-long journey in making an electric clavichord (not a pedal clavichord) that wasn't simply a clavichord with a mic or piezo tossed on, talking to carpenters, talking to piano technicians, reading a bit on wood engineering, talking to others about DIY electric clavichords (again, not pedals), reading a book on organ pedals, and now, attempting to learn more about strings on these various instruments.

Anyway, I believe it is time to start testing with a proof-of-concept, like you said. I do have one question for you, though, regarding the necessity of a bridge. My plan is to not have any soundboard, as I don't need acoustic volume and a soundboard will only serve to 'steal' some of the vibration and sustain from the strings. So, considering this is a fretless instrument, is there really any need for a bridge? I can foresee, at most, requiring little 'bridge pins' to fix the angle of the string an inch or two before entering the tuning pin on one side of the strings, but this is certainly not a bridge.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

It depends what you want to do.
If you want to bow (too), a energy stealing soundboard or at least some construction that lets the bridge move up and down with vibration helps a lot with bowing. what you describe is a nut, the upper termination of the vibrating part of the string.

The angle is needed to clamp the string in the nut groove.

Avoiding a bridge gets you very close to an upright played fretless BG as well as a low string action and a non-moving top.

It might help you more if you study a book about violin building than any keyboard or guitar stuff.

Thick strings are less good to play in higher positions, because they damp the sound a lot and you get short notes plucked.

Undamped strings (i.e. Spirocore, Jazzer, Flat Chromesteel) have a large sustain and are rather bright.

Strings with a single wire steel rod (similar to BG, steel guitar and keyboard strings) are very bright but unpopular because they are hard to play and often overly bright. They are still manufactured but almost no one (except beginners) play such a kind of string. They are cheaper than the better playable rope steel core DB strings.

 

[equill]

Thanks for your help.

Anyway, I believe it is time to start testing with a proof-of-concept, like you said. I do have one question for you, though, regarding the necessity of a bridge. My plan is to not have any soundboard, as I don't need acoustic volume and a soundboard will only serve to 'steal' some of the vibration and sustain from the strings. So, considering this is a fretless instrument, is there really any need for a bridge? I can foresee, at most, requiring little 'bridge pins' to fix the angle of the string an inch or two before entering the tuning pin on one side of the strings, but this is certainly not a bridge.

You're welcome; I'm glad you found it helpful.

As for this question... honestly, I have very little idea. My guess is that it's just one way of solving the problem, and precise control over the height of the string seems like a useful thing, but I'll defer to somebody with experience in designing and building such instruments.