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Double Bass Upton Bass
- Thread starter Cmoon1
- Start date
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Ok, I have to admit that I'm one customer that walked away from Upton. While there are always two sides to a story I will try and be as balanced as I can but I'm not going to compromise myself in the process.
Way back in July/August I went looking around town for a decent hybrid or fully carved instrument. It came down to waiting for the right bass to come through the shop in town locally or ordering through someone like Lemur or Upton. I finally chose Upton due to all the great reviews on this site. Josh was great. He quoted 10 to 12 weeks, which would have put it mid November. I'm thinking that would give me time to get used to the new bass in time for some things that I am doing in December since my current bass is about done for. Well early October I call Upton to find out if they are on schedule and were told that it was going to be around the 1st of December and that it could be even later.
Well I am generally a patient person but this was too much. I asked if they would return my deposit and was told that they couldnt break the rules and what if 20 or 30 people asked for their deposit back. Well I'm sure with Upton's reputation that would not happen but whatever. Further I was told they hadn't guaranteed any date that the date they quoted was an estimate. That was never clearly stated. So I had two choices wait or take the hit on the deposit. They also told me that the delay was just due to the fact that "it takes a long time to build a hand made bass". Was that true?
Well now I find out that the last couple of months they have been making the big change in production and that they were experiencing delays. If that was the case then maybe they could have made an exception since this was clearly not the normal production delay. I found that Upton was totally inflexible in this situation and that they were not exactly truthful.
So to make a long story short, I'm sure that if my timing hadnt been what it was, I would have received a bass in the time frame that they quoted and I probably would have been a happy customer. But as it is I'm not in the least impressed with how this was handled and I think the lesson to be learned that there are many advantages to buying a bass locally. You have a whole lot more control over the process and you don't end up being in a position where you feel that the company that you tried to business with in good faith treated you unfairly. Additionally if something goes wrong with the bass you are not out additional money in shipping or taking it to your local luthier. Obviously some situations will warrent a purchase with out hearing or seeing the bass then you have to do what you have to do.
Buy the way the right bass came in locally two weeks ago and I am very happy at this point!!
Way back in July/August I went looking around town for a decent hybrid or fully carved instrument. It came down to waiting for the right bass to come through the shop in town locally or ordering through someone like Lemur or Upton. I finally chose Upton due to all the great reviews on this site. Josh was great. He quoted 10 to 12 weeks, which would have put it mid November. I'm thinking that would give me time to get used to the new bass in time for some things that I am doing in December since my current bass is about done for. Well early October I call Upton to find out if they are on schedule and were told that it was going to be around the 1st of December and that it could be even later.
Well I am generally a patient person but this was too much. I asked if they would return my deposit and was told that they couldnt break the rules and what if 20 or 30 people asked for their deposit back. Well I'm sure with Upton's reputation that would not happen but whatever. Further I was told they hadn't guaranteed any date that the date they quoted was an estimate. That was never clearly stated. So I had two choices wait or take the hit on the deposit. They also told me that the delay was just due to the fact that "it takes a long time to build a hand made bass". Was that true?
Well now I find out that the last couple of months they have been making the big change in production and that they were experiencing delays. If that was the case then maybe they could have made an exception since this was clearly not the normal production delay. I found that Upton was totally inflexible in this situation and that they were not exactly truthful.
So to make a long story short, I'm sure that if my timing hadnt been what it was, I would have received a bass in the time frame that they quoted and I probably would have been a happy customer. But as it is I'm not in the least impressed with how this was handled and I think the lesson to be learned that there are many advantages to buying a bass locally. You have a whole lot more control over the process and you don't end up being in a position where you feel that the company that you tried to business with in good faith treated you unfairly. Additionally if something goes wrong with the bass you are not out additional money in shipping or taking it to your local luthier. Obviously some situations will warrent a purchase with out hearing or seeing the bass then you have to do what you have to do.
Buy the way the right bass came in locally two weeks ago and I am very happy at this point!!
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
I appreciate your candor and the specifics you offered. I feel that we do well to stay close to the details of our own experiences...who can ever argue with that?
Glad that things worked out for you! What I get from your post is that you chose to walk away from your deposit. Thanks again for sharing another perspective and the courage of your decision.
I believe that our country's UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) makes it pretty clear that a verbal contract stating an agreed-upon purchase amount, transaction schedule, and specific item/service is binding. A contract, by definition, is essentially comprised by those three factors, whether written or verbal.
In other words, if Upton reneged on the schedule, I suspect that they may have been in breach of contract, regardless of other factors (including their internal company policy or cash flow concerns). The question then, is what does one do about it? Sounds like you picked your battles. Who wants a legal contest?
Perhaps their attorney could comment on this more meaningfully and succinctly(?). I humbly offer these thoughts as someone with a bit of business schooling in basic contractual relationships...
Glad that things worked out for you! What I get from your post is that you chose to walk away from your deposit. Thanks again for sharing another perspective and the courage of your decision.
I believe that our country's UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) makes it pretty clear that a verbal contract stating an agreed-upon purchase amount, transaction schedule, and specific item/service is binding. A contract, by definition, is essentially comprised by those three factors, whether written or verbal.
In other words, if Upton reneged on the schedule, I suspect that they may have been in breach of contract, regardless of other factors (including their internal company policy or cash flow concerns). The question then, is what does one do about it? Sounds like you picked your battles. Who wants a legal contest?
Perhaps their attorney could comment on this more meaningfully and succinctly(?). I humbly offer these thoughts as someone with a bit of business schooling in basic contractual relationships...
They did keep it, and while it's a lot of money and I'm not happy about it, at that point the relationship took on such a sour note that I don't think I would have been ever happy staying the course. To try and do something about it legally would probably not be worth the effort, for one thing I live in Denver and they are in Conneticut.
So to me it's done and I'm ready to move on and play bass!
i don't know what the law is in ct or co, but in pa a verbal contract is as legally binding as a written one. did you lose the entire grand deposit or half? half i think would be a reasonable compromise.
jeff.
jeff.
The UCC is applicable in all states, hence the name "Uniform Commercial Code." It was developed for all of us so that commercial transactions, in any state, would all follow the same basic laws. Rules of the road, so to speak.
All that said, I like the real wisdom of Bankerwithabass' point. Legal hassles are rarely worth the time/cost. It comes down to who has the deeper pockets or is most willing to hassle. Pursuing a $500 deposit across 2000 miles would not be cost effective, quick, or fun.
Who needs the aggravation? Ultimately, the person who really follows their conscience and priorities wins, because they carry the least baggage. As he says, he can focus on music.
All that said, I like the real wisdom of Bankerwithabass' point. Legal hassles are rarely worth the time/cost. It comes down to who has the deeper pockets or is most willing to hassle. Pursuing a $500 deposit across 2000 miles would not be cost effective, quick, or fun.
Who needs the aggravation? Ultimately, the person who really follows their conscience and priorities wins, because they carry the least baggage. As he says, he can focus on music.
But you can go to the most recent New Standard "rave" thread (from a guy who actually received his bass) and there -- right in the middle of the NS love-fest -- is the guy with the white letterman sweater with the big "UB" on it, "equating" Upton's yet-widely disbursed "USA" bass with the well-earned "near-legendary" status of the New Standards.
Honestly, as I was watching the thread unfold, I was counting down... "3... 2... 1..." waiting for the Upton shill to crash the thread. And then he disappointed me by fulfilling my negative prophesy.
**I** was embarrassed by it. Anyone else?
For full disclosure, I own two Upton basses and think they are great. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to anyone.
I've played a few different New Standard basses, all cleveland models, and was very very impressed. Great basses with a huge sound and great playability. I love that they continue the tradition of the American Standards of old. I'd love to try out a La Scala model. Arnold Schnitzer has one of the best reputations around as a luthier and from his posting here and over at Ken Smith's forums, he seems like a great guy.
I think that the price point for the New Standards is their biggest detractor. At $4200 and $4400 for the ply cleveland and la scala respectively, that's a lot of $$$ for a plywood bass. granted it's a great plywood bass with Arnold's special touches, but let's not kid ourselves here, it's more than twice that of the Uptons.
I think it's interesting that they get lumped together in converstation so often. I've had the good fortune of having my Upton plywood in the same room as a plywood Cleveland that was set up by Nick Loyd, not Arnold Schnitzer. The two basses are really different animals in terms of sound, price and design. I've posted my thoughts about this elsewhere on this forum. Like I said, the new standards are more than twice cost of the uptons and if Upton decided to add $2200 to their production budget and offer a fancier model or something like that, then the comparisons might hold more weight. As it is now, they are just too different and going for such different markets to make me think of them as comparable.
I've played a few different New Standard basses, all cleveland models, and was very very impressed. Great basses with a huge sound and great playability. I love that they continue the tradition of the American Standards of old. I'd love to try out a La Scala model. Arnold Schnitzer has one of the best reputations around as a luthier and from his posting here and over at Ken Smith's forums, he seems like a great guy.
I think that the price point for the New Standards is their biggest detractor. At $4200 and $4400 for the ply cleveland and la scala respectively, that's a lot of $$$ for a plywood bass. granted it's a great plywood bass with Arnold's special touches, but let's not kid ourselves here, it's more than twice that of the Uptons.
I think it's interesting that they get lumped together in converstation so often. I've had the good fortune of having my Upton plywood in the same room as a plywood Cleveland that was set up by Nick Loyd, not Arnold Schnitzer. The two basses are really different animals in terms of sound, price and design. I've posted my thoughts about this elsewhere on this forum. Like I said, the new standards are more than twice cost of the uptons and if Upton decided to add $2200 to their production budget and offer a fancier model or something like that, then the comparisons might hold more weight. As it is now, they are just too different and going for such different markets to make me think of them as comparable.
Nope. But truth told, I don't remember that thread. In light of that, a few questions/observations:
1) Link?
2) If you're going to call someone a "shill" in the public forums, be prepared to back it up with some facts. I say that for many reasons, but the greatest of those is this - I have been "accused" of shilling for New Standard basses because I love my LaScala hybrid to death, and I post about it. I say things like, "to date, the only bass I've ever played to match it for what I like and do is Sid King's Hachez bass, which comes in at over $30K". I post soundclips of stuff recorded on the bass. I love that damn bass, and I'll admit it, I like to show it off to other bass players. What's the difference between me and the people who love their Upton/New Standard/Gollihur/Shen Willow basses? Am I also a shill?
3) Threads from customers raving about basses they haven't even gotten yet or CS for same should be judged on their own merits. As DONOSAUR likes to say, "res ipsa loquitur". Ditto for those who might compare the Uptons with the New Standards without spending time with both.
In the end, the truth will out. In the meantime, I feel confident that anybody who is really looking to make an informed decision will be able to distinguish the obvious wheat from the obvious chaff. At any rate, that's the best we can hope for at this point. Our only other option is editing by suspicion alone, and I don't think anyone wants that.
Apologies for the formatting errors, whereby I responded "inside" your quote.
Look; the guys who buy Arnold's bassses have been around the block a few times. They don't post to TB every time they get an e-mail. Do you see a pattern here?
The real deal-breaker for me was when shill-boy piggy-backed a pro-Upton vaporware USA "legendary" vomit into a "NS satisfied customer" thread.
Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!
Sam Sherry: Church and state, bro: ouch!
Thank you for the props. If others feel the same about the "cred" of those who are posting about the New Standard basses, then this, too, is part of the story. Please feel free to report posts you feel are "shill" posts and let Paul, Jeremy, Damon, and I do our jobs in implementing Paul's commercial user policy. I can assure you that we consider all reported posts, and that when in doubt, we confer among ourselves before taking action or not.
And now, I really DO have to practice, fellas. Please keep it clean! Over and out for a while.
Whoops!
Seems like a post I quoted has "disappeared" from the link I posted.
Why?
Just looked, and the only two deleted posts were deleted by their original authors.
Now, I really, REALLY gotta practice...
to me upton and the american standards satisfy the requirements of two seperate markets, so why can't they both coexist? why does everything in the states have to be a pissing contest???
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