Uri Geller - Magician

[MYLOWFREQ]

...Maybe you are correct. The ones who try to scam people are using it in an attempt to profit. Having the gift doesn't automatically make a person more virtuous. Some see it as a nuisance. ...On the other hand, if they are using their gift to serve others, then they should be compensated...

Those people are so called 'mediums' that make profit by saying they can contact to your deceased loved one(s), 'psychics' that take your money telling you what to do lying they can see the future, scams that cheat playing what seems like a fair game like the three shell game, pickpockets that use misdirection to steal your money, etc. They all use the same techniques the magicians use.

The place where we don't agree is that you really think some people are "gifted" who can see the future, and can use their "magic" for good, which is NOT true. I'm confused that in the same post, you also say that there's no "magic".. But as I said, I can not make you believe me, I can only tell you the truth.

Think of this way, the magicians throughout the history has tried to tell the people the truth about these charlatans. Robert Houdin, debunked 'psychics' and 'mediums' revealing their secrets. Houdini himself was actually a believer himself at first who tried to connect to his deceased mother through 'mediums', only after figuring out the truth, he started debunking them. James Randi was a magician, who called him self an "honest liar". There's a ton of other magicians like them.

The difference between a magician and a charlatan is: when a magician says "I'm a magician", they say, "I will deceive you", and they do it for entertainment purposes only. Charlatans (psychics, mediums, pickpockets, scams...) would never say they use trickery, misdirection, gimmicks, and so on, because all they want is your hard earned money.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

...I'd like to throw something else on the pile for consideration. Suppose I could get you to take a class where you would spend 6 hours per day for 5 days learning a complicated process of verbally and visually manipulating people's thoughts and emotions so much that you could sell them expensive items that they don't really want. After you learned this skill and practiced it for a little while, you could make lots of money at it.

This actually exists, of course. There are schools that teach people how to be effective salespersons, and the techniques learned will multiply the number of sales made by enormous amounts...

Sure, there are magicians who are hired as what is called a "sales magician".

 

[hbarcat]

Why do skeptics always think in such self-serving ways? Doesn't it occur that what they say is true: That the ability doesn't allow them to serve themselves, but only others? Why do you think it's some kind of "magic" power that can reveal lottery numbers, when it doesn't even work that way.

It allows a lot of them to become famous and make a lot of money from TV shows and selling books.

Maybe you are correct. The ones who try to scam people are using it in an attempt to profit. Having the gift doesn't automatically make a person more virtuous. Some see it as a nuisance. ...On the other hand, if they are using their gift to serve others, then they should be compensated.

I agree. A lot of good could be done using genuine psychic powers. But I'm not aware of this happening. I see psychics being compensated, but not psychics using their powers to actually help others in any substantial way. Unless you consider telling someone that their dead granny says she's happy in heaven is a particularly useful service. Much more useful if they could get granny to reveal where she stashed the deed to the house.

John Edwards said that his visions come to him "like daydreams". Doesn't that prove in some way that he may be telling the truth.

If John Edward says that his visions come to him "like daydreams" then that proves he's lying, because he's clearly using cold reading techniques.

You and I have daydreams all the time, but how often do we try to understand or interpret them? If a daydream can communicate psychic messages (on occasion) then that means everyone has the gift, but they don't care enough to develop.

That's an interesting concept. I admit it would be immensely useful if I had a latent psychic ability that I could develop.

Some 30 years ago, I decided to dedicate time and effort into becoming a good musician. I think it's paid off quite well. Similar effort to developing psychic powers would certainly be worthwhile if I could make that pay off as well.

The problem is, there are countless examples of people practicing playing music on an instrument and becoming quite good at it, but I don't know of any examples of people developing genuine psychic powers. Literally none. I know of many frauds, but not a single example of a real psychic.

Like it or not, the burden of proof is on the psychics. They need to provide verifiable evidence that their abilities are genuine and not the result of known parlor tricks. If they can't do that, then I'm not wasting my time with them. I'm certainly not going to give them my money.

 

[ElectroVibe]

The place where we don't agree is that you really think some people are "gifted" who can see the future...

I don't believe people can predict the future with exactness. But they can still see things that have yet to occur.

I had a dream that predicted something that would happen a few days in advance once. A warning. It was scarily accurate. It was a result of my brain processing existing facts, plus other things I could not have possibly known or predicted:
A plan made by strangers in another town who I never met.
(This is what filled in the unknown information.)

My only explanation is something beyond known science. But I doubt that anyone here will believe me.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

I don't believe people can predict the future with exactness. But they can still see things that have yet to occur.

I had a dream that predicted something that would happen a few days in advance once. A warning. It was scarily accurate. It was a result of my brain processing existing facts, plus other things I could not have possibly known or predicted:
A plan made by strangers in another town who I never met.
(This is what filled in the unknown information.)

My only explanation is something beyond known science. But I doubt that anyone here will believe me.

I've seen things happening in my dreams before they really did. I've also had dreams that have never become real. If you romantically associate seeing something in your dream becoming real with paranormal, then more power to you!

I'm not going to participate in this anymore, because I really think that I'll be repeating myself. It was nice to chat with you, take care!

 

[ElectroVibe]

I've seen things happening in my dreams before they really did. I've also had dreams that have never become real. If you romantically associate seeing something in your dream becoming real with paranormal, then more power to you!

I'm not going to participate in this anymore, because I really think that I'll be repeating myself. It was nice to chat with you, take care!

I don't think you even understood what I said. Most people (unlike myself) would have just not gone to the place that day. They would have followed their gut and taken it as a bad sign.

The mistake I made was dismissing my dream as silly and illogical nonsense. And I paid the price.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

I don't think you even understood what I said. Most people (unlike myself) would have just not gone to the place that day. They would have followed their gut and taken it as a bad sign.

The mistake I made was dismissing my dream as silly and illogical nonsense. And I paid the price.

No, I don't understand it because I don't belive in this BS. Why don't you share your psychic experiences on a different platform? TB is for bass players, I'm sure there's a bunch of other websites where you can talk about this crap.

 

[Guild B301]

Why don't you share your psychic experiences on a different platform? TB is for bass players, I'm sure there's a bunch of other websites where you can talk about this crap.

He posted in the "Off Topic" forum, where bassists talk all out all kinds other things from hobbies to food. It's in the correct place.

 

[buldog5151bass]

If they really didn't believe, then it shouldn't be a threat should it? Hmm.

Can't they just acknowledge that there are unknown powers that modern science cannot explain?

If it makes you happy to believe in it, no one has a going to stop you, but when you saying objectively that it is so, when not only do you have no objective proof, and where other "evidence" has been debunked, don't expect others to come to your side.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

He posted in the "Off Topic" forum, where bassists talk all out all kinds other things from hobbies to food. It's in the correct place.

He seems to get responses he'd like to hear posting somewhere else.

 

[hbarcat]

I have no problem with this topic of discussion and I chose to participate. If EV is willing to keep posting to a unanimously skeptical audience and as long as everything is kept respectful, then I see no harm. Anybody who doesn't like it is free to go elsewhere.

 

[Guild B301]

If it makes you happy to believe in it, no one has a going to stop you, but when you saying objectively that it is so, when not only do you have no objective proof, and where other "evidence" has been debunked, don't expect others to come to your side.

Plenty of people here believe a Fender is the only bass there is.
Others disagree.
Neither argument will be solved on TalkBass, but there's no harm in discussing it.

 

[Iridescentone]

Plenty of people here believe a Fender is the only bass there is.
Others disagree.
Neither argument will be solved on TalkBass, but there's no harm in discussing it.

Sorry but no one here "believes" that. That paradigm doesn't exist. So it can't, in reality, be "disagreed" with.

The only "arguments" surrounding that false narrative are ones that are insinuated by those who insist that the false narrative actually exists in the first place...but it does not.

 

[Guild B301]

Sorry but no one here "believes" that. That paradigm doesn't exist. So it can't, in reality, be "disagreed" with.

The only "arguments" surrounding that false narrative are ones that are insinuated by those who insist that the false narrative actually exists in the first place...but it does not.

I made an analogy using a metaphor - apparently that wasn't clear to you.

 

[Iridescentone]

I made an analogy using a metaphor - apparently that wasn't clear to you.

Yes I got that. I find that when people use metaphors, they generally draw from their personal experience and opinions. Although your Fender bass metaphor may have seemed apropo on a bass guitar forum, and even though it was wildly hyperbolic, it reveals an underlying belief in the fantasy of some "Fender vs Us" meme here on Talkbass. The meme exists (judging by its incessant repetition), but the paradigm that is allegedly behind it does not. So in the interest of not spreading falsehoods (even through "metaphors").....

 

[ElectroVibe]

He seems to get responses he'd like to hear posting somewhere else.

If this topic bothers you so much then why are you discussing it.

 

[Alkali Ike]

David Blaine: Magician?

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

If this topic bothers you so much then why are you discussing it.

Read my post #65. I wrote: "I'm not going to participate in this anymore, because I really think that I'll be repeating myself. It was nice to chat with you, take care!" but you keep quoting me for whatever reason.

Anyway, this is my very last post. I sincerely wish you the best, and I won't respond to this thread anymore.

 

[Jazz Ad]

My question is "Why" also. Why do you deny something that so many people believe in?

Does it bother you in some way? Is the idea threatening? I really don't understand. But it just seems like some people feel threatened by this for some reason.

The time to believe in something is when it's been proven true.
Everytime in human history, whenever a valid explanation was found it proved to be natural and material.
Meanwhile, everytime somebody proposed a testable supernatural power they were proven wrong.
This should make anyone very cautious about supernatural claims.

It REALLY bothers me that people believe in stuff for the wrong reasons. It means the tools they use to separate right from wrong, true from false are flawed, tainted with false assumptions.

I indeed find it frightening because these people can vote, testify, jury, teach and generally act negatively in a society.

It lead to concepts and uses that severely hurt humanity. Bigotry, discrimination, lack of discernment, racism. Not because people are inherently bad but because their lack of logic and epistemological tools makes them gullible.

That you don't understand it is even more frightening.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

What does he do for a living nowadays?

If he's not worth billions and billions of dollars, then he's never been able to read minds even a little bit.