Uri Geller - Magician

[Guild B301]

What belief in the spirit world really boils down to, is whether people believe that spirits continue after death. For some this also includes religion.
Some people find belief in spirits, a threat.
Therefore they will also deny spirits or ghosts exist, because that would interfere with their non-belief. It's a whole big, tangled question of faith. So, people aren't going to all get along on this.

 

[TOOL460002]

What belief in the spirit world really boils down to, is whether people believe that spirits continue after death. For some this also includes religion.
Some people find belief in spirits, a threat.
Therefore they will also deny spirits or ghosts exist, because that would interfere with their non-belief. It's a whole big, tangled question of faith. So, people aren't going to all get along on this.

Beliefs are one thing. Of course they are personal. No problems there. Now when you try to mash metaphysics and physics together, well, there is a problem.

 

[Guild B301]

Beliefs are one thing. Of course they are personal. No problems there. Now when you try to mash metaphysics and physics together, well, there is a problem.

Well, people have been trying to prove (through all kinds of scientific means) whether spirits exist or not, forever. It always comes down to faith.

 

[TOOL460002]

Well, people have been trying to prove (through all kinds of scientific means) whether spirits exist or not, forever. It always comes down to faith.

It should absolutely be left to faith. I'm cool with that. I believe odd things. For example, I am a fan of simulation theory. Now, the statistical argument for it is fun, but at the end of it all, it comes down to whether you believe simulations will exist and be used.

That's a great example of a metaphysical belief of mine that is often wrapped in physics. Doesn't mean I can't believe, but it does mean I cannot prove it and would be foolish to try. Incorrect even.

So not judging a given belief, just certain statements around them.

 

[ElectroVibe]

What belief in the spirit world really boils down to, is whether people believe that spirits continue after death. For some this also includes religion.
Some people find belief in spirits, a threat.
Therefore they will also deny spirits or ghosts exist, because that would interfere with their non-belief. It's a whole big, tangled question of faith. So, people aren't going to all get along on this.

If they really didn't believe, then it shouldn't be a threat should it? Hmm.

Can't they just acknowledge that there are unknown powers that modern science cannot explain?

 

[hbarcat]

Jonathan Edwards is a true psychic, I believe.

I know his work. He clearly uses cold and hot reading techniques (plus lots of video editing).

I'm sorry, but my honest opinion of him is pretty low. He claims to have real psychic ability when he knows he's using parlor tricks. Worse than that, he exploits people's grief by fooling them into believing he can communicate with their dead loved ones.

My question is "Why" also. Why do you deny something that so many people believe in?

Does it bother you in some way? Is the idea threatening? I really don't understand. But it just seems like some people feel threatened by this for some reason.

It doesn't threaten me directly, but belief in the supernatural is very costly to society. I have friends and family who've given money to frauds who claim to have psychic powers.

Consider this idea:
"We've arranged a civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster."
-- Carl Sagan

 

[Guild B301]

I know his work. He clearly uses cold and hot reading techniques (plus lots of video editing).

I'm sorry, but my honest opinion of him is pretty low. He claims to have real psychic ability when he knows he's using parlor tricks. Worse than that, he exploits people's grief by fooling them into believing he can communicate with their dead loved ones.



It doesn't threaten me directly, but belief in the supernatural is very costly to society. I have friends and family who've given money to frauds who claim to have psychic powers.

Yes, when people start trying to exploit ANYTHING to make money that requires belief, you usually know they are faking. From my experience with my mom, it wasn't something you could call up on command. You could not make it a profession. I don't know if John Edwards is in some way psychic, but I don't believe everything I see on TV.

 

[dreamadream99]

Do you really think those simple parlor tricks are the same thing that Geller was doing?

Same tricks. The difference is that Geller claimed it was real.

 

[Gorn]

My question is "Why" also. Why do you deny something that so many people believe in?

Does it bother you in some way? Is the idea threatening? I really don't understand. But it just seems like some people feel threatened by this for some reason.

The popularity of an idea has no bearing on its truth. None whatsoever. I'm not convinced it's true. I'm not necessarily convinced it's not true. Magical thinking bothers me in many ways. It doesn't exactly threaten me, but it's a threat to rationality and reason. I also think mediums are cruel and immoral hucksters that prey on sad people for money. I tentatively accept as true that which is evidently true. That's all. I'm not threatened. I'm not scared. I'm not swayed by popular opinion.

 

[ElectroVibe]

Consider this idea:
"We've arranged a civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster."
-- Carl Sagan

His quote isn't 100% clear, but it sounds like he felt threatened by the idea of the supernatural. Not all scientists are. But just because he was a rich famous celebrity, it wouldn't make his opinions more true than an average ordinary person.

 

[Gorn]

His quote isn't 100% clear, but it sounds like he felt threatened by the idea of the supernatural. Not all scientists are. But just because he was a rich famous celebrity, it wouldn't make his opinions more true than an average ordinary person.

Have you considered that you might be projecting this sense of being threatened that you think skeptics and rationalists feel?

 

[hbarcat]

His quote isn't 100% clear, but it sounds like he felt threatened by the idea of the supernatural. Not all scientists are. But just because he was a rich famous celebrity, it wouldn't make his opinions more true than an average ordinary person.

I can help put his quote in context. He was describing how modern civilization is fundamentally based on science and technology. For example, traditional farming techniques can only feed about 1 billion people. Industrial farming that uses chemical pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers and genetically engineered crops can feed 10x that.

Considering the world's population is currently about 8 billion, if we stopped using modern industrial farming techniques, 7 billion people would die within a year. But the technology that makes it possible to get 10x the yield from our crops isn't magic. It's complicated science and it comes with huge risks. These chemicals can poison us and the environment.

The point is, believing in magic and ignoring science is a catastrophe for the human race. Policy makers regulate and control how some technology is used by the public and by businesses because they can be dangerous. We need these policy makers to understand what they're dealing with. But more importantly, the public needs to be able to tell the difference between policy based on science and policy based on wishful thinking and magical beliefs.

Science tells us that we humans are apes, and our closest cousins are gorillas, orangutans, and chimpanzees, with which we share more than 99% of our working DNA. We can use this knowledge to learn about ourselves and to understand that our own behavior, good and bad, is dependent on 4 billion years of common evolution and an almost identical genetic blueprint. Or we can choose to reject the facts because they might make us feel uncomfortable.

Sagan was speaking about the enormous value of accepting uncomfortable truths over pleasant falsehoods, particularly when the people in power prefer that we remain ignorant.

 

[Iridescentone]

I'll give you guys an example to discuss: I'd like both sides to weigh in on what they think. I guarantee this to be completely true. When I was a kid in rural Texas, we used to have travel long distances to visit relatives, do ranch work for my family, and just drive around, seeing the beautiful countryside for enjoyment. Sometimes we would travel 300-400 miles a trip. My mother could 'warn us' about road hazards. She'd tell my dad (who was driving), to "watch out over that next hill because there is something blocking the road". Sure enough, there was a dead horse another truck had hit, and that truck had stopped to move the horse. This was a couple hundred miles or more from home and she did not know the terrain, nor could she see lights or anything in advance. Another time: On the road leaving Austin in about 1969, she told us "watch out up ahead - there is going to be something in the road." About a mile down the road, (after dark), a drunk wandered out into the lane of traffic and fell down. I'm sure my dad would have hit him, if my mom hadn't put him on the alert. Another time on my birthday in 1973, she warned us of a person going to pull out in front of us in a car. That time, another drunk guy stopped at a stop sign, and when my dad continued forward, the drunk ran into the side of our car and hit us. The warning didn't help, but she certainly knew something was going to happen. These things all happened before cell phones, or internet and we didn't even have radio reception in some places. She couldn't have learned about it in advance.
She could also send my dad into a grocery store with a list, and could tell us all to the penny, exactly how much he'd spent. Mind you, he would add on other items she didn't know about, or he sometimes spent less, because they were out of items. Not just once, but hundreds of times these things happened. She once told us something that she believed happened at a house my parents were thinking about buying. This was a long way from where we lived, and she had no previous knowledge of the place. When my dad asked, sure enough, she was right. She also could tell us many other things in advance, which later happened . She didn't know how or why she was able to do this, but she had some kind of precognition. She couldn't care less about, magic, psychic phenomena, nor anything else like it.
I'm sure some people believe I could have been tricked because I was a child, but she continued to be able to do things like this her entire life, until she died 3 years ago. Why, or however you believe this things happen, - they do happen without trickery.

People used to refer to this phenom as "a mother's intuition".

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

The line between cold reading and mind reading is fuzzier than you are implying. This is something that everyone has a degree of, but some have just developed it or had a stronger gift.

You sound like you got your PHD on mind reading How can you say that mind reading is real without providing any evidence? Believing in mind reading is not considered a proof.

I am a magician, and while I'm more specialized in close-up magic, I do some mind reading/mentalism, and can assure you that Uri Geller and other so called 'mediums', 'psychics' etc. are nothing but charlatans. They use the same methods the magicians use, and they all hate magicians for good reason (I know that very well from firsthand experience).

I wonder why those 'psychics' who can predict the future read your palm for $5, but not play the lottery instead. James Randi had the 'one million dollar paranormal challenge' offered by the James Randi Educational Foundation for any 'psychic', 'medium', etc. who could demonstrate a supernatural or paranormal ability under test conditions for 51 years. Over 1000 people tried, but they all failed. Uri Geller himself was debunked by Randi on live TV.

That being said, believers are going to believe. I'm not here to change your mind. Randi would debunk a 'psychic', and receive letters from people saying "Thank you Randi for opening my eyes. I don't believe that charlatan anymore, but my sister found us a psychic who can really predict the future!"

 

[smeet]

There certainly are things that we can't currently explain through science. But supernatural is a word that makes no sense. If something happens, it's natural. If some part of you lives on after your body dies, that would be a natural phenomenon, just one we don't currently understand. The dividing line between what we can explain and what we can't keeps moving.

Once we can explain something, it no longer requires faith to believe it. So it's less attractive to those people who depend on the romantic idea of believing against all odds. If you are one of those romantics, more power to you. Create great art. Believe what you want. But that doesn't make it real. It doesn't mean it's not real of course. So keep the faith.

Did Geller do "magic"? No. Did he harness as-yet-unknown laws of physics to do his tricks? Maybe. But it is much easier to fool human minds and eyes than to discover new physical laws. So that's what most people do, and have done, ever since the first lie was told.

 

[hbarcat]

I am a magician, and while I'm more specialized in close-up magic, I do some mind reading/mentalism, and can assure you that Uri Geller and other so called 'mediums', 'psychics' etc. are nothing but charlatans.

Thank you, I'm very glad you posted this because it means so much more when an expert who actually practices these techniques can attest to the fact that they are all using well known parlor tricks that has nothing to do with paranormal abilities.

I'd like to throw something else on the pile for consideration. Suppose I could get you to take a class where you would spend 6 hours per day for 5 days learning a complicated process of verbally and visually manipulating people's thoughts and emotions so much that you could sell them expensive items that they don't really want. After you learned this skill and practiced it for a little while, you could make lots of money at it.

This actually exists, of course. There are schools that teach people how to be effective salespersons, and the techniques learned will multiply the number of sales made by enormous amounts.

For about 2 years, I was a car salesman and I attended one of these schools and learned the sales process. Using some rather complicated and sophisticated methods of interacting with customers, it's possible to manipulate their thoughts and emotions and virtually switch off their sense of skepticism.

Here's some numbers for you. If a car salesman doesn't bother using these techniques he might sell a vehicle to 1 customer in 10. But a good salesman who intentionally uses these techniques might sell a vehicle to as many as ½ of them. That's a 500% increase in sales.

The point I want to make by bringing this up is that these sales techniques are very much like the tricks psychics use to fool their audiences. For the same reason (because they want to take your momey) they don't want you to know how the trick is done.

The spiritualist doesn't want you to know he's practicing cold reading. He wants you to think he can really talk to your dead granny in heaven. The car salesman doesn't want tou to know you're being pushed through a psychologically manipulative process to keep you from thinking about possible reasons why this may not be a good deal. He wants you to believe him when he assures you that you can't afford to pass this up and you need to sign the contract now.

 

[ElectroVibe]

I wonder why those 'psychics' who can predict the future read your palm for $5, but not play the lottery instead. James Randi had the 'one million dollar paranormal challenge' offered by the James Randi Educational Foundation for any 'psychic', 'medium', etc. who could demonstrate a supernatural or paranormal ability under test conditions for 51 years. Over 1000 people tried, but they all failed. Uri Geller himself was debunked by Randi on live TV.

Why do skeptics always think in such self-serving ways? Doesn't it occur that what they say is true: That the ability doesn't allow them to serve themselves, but only others? Why do you think it's some kind of "magic" power that can reveal lottery numbers, when it doesn't even work that way.

Maybe you are correct. The ones who try to scam people are using it in an attempt to profit. Having the gift doesn't automatically make a person more virtuous. Some see it as a nuisance. ...On the other hand, if they are using their gift to serve others, then they should be compensated.

John Edwards said that his visions come to him "like daydreams". Doesn't that prove in some way that he may be telling the truth. You and I have daydreams all the time, but how often do we try to understand or interpret them? If a daydream can communicate psychic messages (on occasion) then that means everyone has the gift, but they don't care enough to develop it.

 

[ElectroVibe]

Psychics are used all the time to help investigate murders.

I see it as the psychic has a vision of where the body is and is able to lead detectives to crime scene. He may see the vision as a "ghost" of the dead victim, and that's all he really sees. But what's really happening is that he is "reading" the mind of the murderer, and that is just the form it takes when he receives it.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

...Why do you think it's some kind of "magic" power that can reveal lottery numbers, when it doesn't even work that way...

That's exactly what I'm saying! There's no "magic" power that can reveal the lottery numbers or anything really, because there's no real magic. It's all trickery, misdirection, gimmicks, psychology etc.

 

[hbarcat]

Psychics are used all the time to help investigate murders.

I see it as the psychic has a vision of where the body is and is able to lead detectives to crime scene. He may see the vision as a "ghost" of the dead victim, and that's all he really sees. But what's really happening is that he is "reading" the mind of the murderer, and that is just the form it takes when he receives it.

Only in the movies and on TV shows. In the real world, any police detective who would waste time and resources on a psychic who claimed their powers of clairvoyance could solve a murder mystery would quickly find himself reassigned to checking parking meters.