Uri Geller - Magician

[ElectroVibe]

Interesting, I have never heard of the Stone Tape theory before. That's sort of what I think was happening (if it's real) with psychics reading the thoughts of dead people. Maybe those various thoughts are floating out there, created before the person died, and it just takes someone with the sensitivity to "hear" them.

 

[ElectroVibe]

A strange phenomenon happened when I was in high school. A few random times I remember smelling a strong burning smell when I stood in one part of a hallway in our house. No one else except my mom could smell it. Very strange. But then I also recall that my mom said she may not have actually smelled it, but just pretended to so I wouldn't feel alone.

How can that be explained? It was as real to my senses as anything tangible.

 

[Jazz Ad]

"I don't know" is an ok answer to a lot of things.
"It is a supernatural" isn't until you can demonstrate it.

I disagree that science takes faith. Faith is believing something without sufficient evidence.
Science doesn't do that. It looks at evidence then draws conclusions, put to test through models and predictions.

I don't see how the subject of epistemology can be discussed properly here since it is deeply routed into religion and politics.

 

[ElectroVibe]

The fact that our dreams are so vivid and complex, even daydreams, and that skeptics will dismiss them as meaningless nonsense. That to me is strange, weird, and unexplained. Ironic, right?

When I am trying to fall asleep I can tell that it's starting to happen when I begin dreaming. At first I'll be lying in bed just thinking about ordinary things. Suddenly a phrase will come to my mind that I'm hearing some person saying. I have no idea what it was supposed to mean or how my brain came up with such an interesting phrase. It's coming from my subconscious mind.

I don't believe everything in our dreams is just meaningless. And the fact that psychics can tune in to their own visions and remember and interpret them tells me that they are in tune with something real.

To ignore something, just because you cannot understand it, does not make it go away. And it does not invalidate it either. It's still there, whether you like it or not. Just like Scrooge who tried to rationalize away his own visions, it is a mistake to do the same thing now.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Sleep in general and dreams in particular, why and how they happen are a well studied and explained field. There is ample litterature about it. They can be started, stoped and their content precisely controlled.

The proposition is to acknowledge events the way they appear, look for solid explanations, dismiss fictional ones and admit you don't understand when you don't.

If along the way you discover that an event isn't what you thought or is falsified then it is time to dismiss it.

Unfalsifiable hypothesis are outside the realm of science. I think these should be dismissed but many, many people think otherwise.

 

[ElectroVibe]

Sleep in general and dreams in particular, why and how they happen are a well studied and explained field. There is ample litterature about it. They can be started, stoped and their content precisely controlled.

The proposition is to acknowledge events the way they appear, look for solid explanations, dismiss fictional ones and admit you don't understand when you don't.

If along the way you discover that an event isn't what you thought or is falsified then it is time to dismiss it.

Unfalsifiable hypothesis are outside the realm of science. I think these should be dismissed but many, many people think otherwise.

But just because it can't be explained by science, it should not be dismissed.

The fact that science-only people DO dismiss something that is so obviously in existence, makes them look foolish. They don't realize how foolish they often appear.

 

[Gorn]

But just because it can't be explained by science, it should not be dismissed.

The fact that science-only people DO dismiss something that is so obviously in existence, makes them look foolish. They don't realize how foolish they often appear.

I've become skeptical that you're being genuine at all in this thread.

 

[ElectroVibe]

I've become skeptical that you're being genuine at all in this thread.

Or perhaps you are just misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm trying to be objective.

It's like ignoring the gorilla in the cage in the middle of the room. We all can see it. So to pretend it's not even there would make a person look foolish.

 

[hbarcat]

I left this discussion when it delved into witchcraft, hexes, and the devil, but I do want to comment on this particular post.

Yes, of course. I don't buy every whacko claim that comes down the pike.

I'm curious what determines which paranormal or supernatural claims you accept and which you reject - and why.

But I think that there can be too much faith in modern science. The science of a thousand years ago was considered "modern" at that time too. But how many people follow that today? So how do we know that today's science won't be disproven at some point in the future? There is also the fact that many scientific developments were inspired by more spiritual pursuits in the past. Sadly those same pursuits are now considered archaic by "modern" science. Yet those traditions have not changed through the years the way that science constantly does.

Science works by constantly testing the unknown and then keeping the explanations that work and abandoning those that don't.

That's why the findings of modern science are more reliable than the findings of ancient science. In fact, the practice of the scientific method is only about 400 years old. "The science of a thousand years ago" that you referenced wasn't real science, but was actually "philosophy".

Consider the science of astronomy and the fact that it evolved from the mysticism of astrology. Johannes Kepler was an astrologer in the late 1500s who used his mathematical genius along with precise observations of the movements of the planets over many years to correctly deduce that planetary orbits are elliptical, not circular.

His motivation was spiritual - he was devoutly religious and believed that being able to predict the motion of the planets would help him understand the mind of God.

What's important about his discovery is that he spent decades trying, without success, to figure out planetary orbits using mystical methods based on old beliefs in the magic power of certain geometric shapes. He eventually gave up after he realized such mystical ideas were useless.

Once that distraction was gone, he concentrated on analyzing only the data collected from his own observations and employing the methods of science, which were in their infancy at the time.

He started his life as an astrologer and became the world's first astronomer. The lesson to be learned from Kepler is that he was willing to abandon his long held belief in magical ideas from the past after it became clear that the evidence wasn't there to support them.

Contrary to what advocates for psychic powers believe, scientists have engaged in an enormous amount of study of the paranormal over the years. If there was anything to it, then it would be taught in science class today. Mind reading and predicting the future have been extensively studied because if such powers existed, they would be incredibly valuable to all humanity. The scientist who proved psychic powers would be more famous than Einstein.

 

[hbarcat]

So how do we know that today's science won't be disproven at some point in the future?

I'm pretty familiar with the history of science up to the present day and I don't know of a single instance where an established scientific fact or theory has been found to be wrong.

What does happen frequently is scientists propose ideas that are provisional hypotheses to attempt to explain phenomena that are poorly understood. Most of these ideas turn out to be dead ends and are discarded.

An example of this is the "steady state" hypothesis in cosmology. After it was discovered that the universe is expanding, "steady state" was conceived as a way to make new galaxies appear as older galaxies disappeared. The idea persisted for a few decades until it was discarded in favor of the "big bang" theory. By now, the big bang theory is firmly established and it isn't going anywhere in the future.

There are examples of scientists scoffing at ideas that turned out to be true. One of them is rocks falling from the sky. Reports throughout history of rocks falling from the sky were always rejected by scientists because there was no verifiable evidence of it happening, except for exceedingly rare eyewitness accounts. It wasn't until the early 1800s when scientists began to take the idea seriously and subsequent study proved that meteorites were metallic stones that originated in outer space.

Another example is plate tectonics. It had been proposed many times during the 1800s that the edges of the continents fit together not just in shape, but also geologically. This couldn't be a coincidence and it seemed that the continents must have once been all connected.

Yet no scientist could imagine any plausible explanation for how the continents could be together in the past but now be on different parts of the Earth. It wasn't until the 1960s, when the evidence for seafloor spreading from ocean trenches* accumulated to the extent that it was considered definitive proof of plate tectonic theory.

So it's conceivable that maybe in the future scientists will discover that some people can bend spoons and move other objects with their minds. But, considering how thoroughly it's been tested in the past and found to be either not doable, or a parlor trick, I wouldn't bet money on it.

*I have a personal interest in the plate tectonic theory because my uncle was a a marine geologist who was part of the team that took the seafloor samples which provided the data that proved the theory. He was a scientist on this research ship.
Glomar Challenger - Wikipedia

 

[Jazz Ad]

It's like ignoring the gorilla in the cage in the middle of the room. We all can see it. So to pretend it's not even there would make a person look foolish.

You keep looping back to this. Nobody proposed such a thing. Stop using an argument that doesn't exist.

 

[mikewalker]

... Can anyone provide a plausible, physical, scientific, basis upon which telepathy could work? ...

I certainly can't! I have some suspicions, but cannot put them into any scientific context at the moment. Maybe when I get a real fluent grasp of quantum mechanics, perhaps!!

But this being a BASS PLAYER forum, I am pretty sure that many of us already have considerable personal experience with telepathy. The synchronicity of three musicians pulling 'something' of great complexity out thin air, with absolute cooperative precision both rythmically and harmonically, belies the populist concept that we all just had a sort of running unconscious chess game in our heads that quite banally predicted that we should all by necessity have to lock into a certain precise groove at a precise moment in time.
Early next year I am publishing an archival recording of a completely spontaneous improvisation session ( first and only time the musicians in question played together) - which starkly illustrates exactly this sort of musical telepathy...

 

[Stempelloos]

I have one more paranormal story for you all to contemplate. I have no explanation.
{BTW- I'm leaving TalkBass, to get back to playing. Here is a link to my last post if anyone wants to see a giant CARROT: Quitting, TB bassists & TX Carrots}

I grew up in a fairly new house, south of Austin. It was in the country then, with cattle all around, but now is in the city. No one had ever died there, nor had anything strange or paranormal ever happened. As the country roads became larger streets, and then highways, many bad auto crashes happened at the curve in front of my house. Several people died in my front yard. At least three I'm sure of. I was a teenager by then. One guy in a Jeep was thrown from it, and died in my driveway. Soon thereafter, we started hearing the sound of our locked front door opening and then closing, as if it was being shut behind someone. Followed by the interior entry hall door opening and closing, as if it was being shut behind someone. Then the sound of someone walking down the wooden floor of the hallway to the guest bathroom. Then the sound of the sink water faucet would turn on for about 5 seconds, before sounding like it turned off. At first, we always thought that someone had broken into our house. At night, it was very frightening. We would check for a burglar, and there would be no one there, and the faucet water was never on. We would run to check it during the day, but the sound would stop, before we got there. I assure you, no one was playing a prank. My whole family heard this at different times, even when they were alone. Usually, we thought it was just one or the other of us, coming indoors, & washing our hands. Except, many times, it turned out to be no one at all. We just HAD to check every time, (especially at night), because it truly sounded like a person had come in our house while we were all sleeping. It sounded so real, we didn't want to become complacent, in case it really was someone breaking in. Our guests even heard it. It happened hundreds of times. It didn't start happening, until I was about 18-19 years old. Nothing weird or paranormal prior to that. The house is no longer there. The guy I sold it to, kept it a while, and then had it bulldozed. The lot had been empty since 2011, though it is now in a very high traffic commercial area, with expensive stores surrounding it.
Does anyone have an explanation for this phenomena? I've considered the 'stone tape' theory. I can't explain it, but I can tell you, it is completely true. I don't have all the answers, but I'm open minded enough to search for them.

I don't have a proper explanation for the phenomena in the quoted story. As for the 'stone tape theory', I had to look it up. But it sounds like a belief that is more or less common among people that investigate in the 'supernatural'. Generally speaking, it says that all kinds of (human) energy can be seen or read by those that have the sensitivity to do so. Whether that is scientifically true, doesn't really bother people that support that explanation.

What the guy that bulldozed the place did, is more or less common in places that are said to be 'haunted'. Make the place disappear, and leave the terrain at rest for a long time, before rebuilding the house or building something else there.
Or take the roof off the house and leave it like that for a couple of years, then put a new roof on it and put new floors, timber, plumbing and electricity in it.

General belief is that 'spirits' or 'ghosts' stay at certain places, although some appear not to be limited to a certain building or area.

This comment is reflecting on what I picked up from talking to people that expressed opinions on extraordinary events that were discussed. It's no scientific explanation.

 

[ElectroVibe]

Contrary to what advocates for psychic powers believe, scientists have engaged in an enormous amount of study of the paranormal over the years. If there was anything to it, then it would be taught in science class today. Mind reading and predicting the future have been extensively studied because if such powers existed, they would be incredibly valuable to all humanity. The scientist who proved psychic powers would be more famous than Einstein.

If that other world remains blind to those scientists, then that is their problem. It is wrong to try to manipulate those powers, or whatever they are trying to do, for their personal gain. It's no wonder they haven't discovered anything.

People like that and like James Randi will never find anything.

 

[Gorn]

If that other world remains blind to those scientists, then that is their problem. It is wrong to try to manipulate those powers, or whatever they are trying to do, for their personal gain. It's no wonder they haven't discovered anything.

People like that and like James Randi will never find anything.

Well done sir. You got em.

 

[Jazz Ad]

And this is how you end with people believing the Earth is flat and millionaire evengelists.

 

[Bob_Ross]

I am pretty sure that many of us already have considerable personal experience with telepathy. The synchronicity of three musicians pulling 'something' of great complexity out thin air, with absolute cooperative precision both rythmically and harmonically, belies the populist concept that we all just had a sort of running unconscious chess game in our heads that quite banally predicted that we should all by necessity have to lock into a certain precise groove at a precise moment in time.
Early next year I am publishing an archival recording of a completely spontaneous improvisation session ( first and only time the musicians in question played together) - which starkly illustrates exactly this sort of musical telepathy...

As someone who has spent a vast amount of his performing life involved in musical improvisation to varying degrees -- including a veritable crap-ton of completely free [sic] 100% improvised material, often with musicians I've never even met before -- I think it's a bit disingenuous to use terms like "telepathy" in the context of a thread about Uri Geller and his particular form of "telepathy".

Yes, we very often talk about "magical" moments in a musical performance, especially when an ensemble is crafting music out of thin air which sounds tight, compelling, and structured despite the fact that there may have been no pre-composed material, strategies, charts, graphs, game theories, rehearsals, discussions, pre-conceived ideas, direction, nor any forethought whatsoever. How else could it happen, unless everyone in the band was "on the same wavelength" or had a mutual Jedi mind-trick linking their brains, right?

But I think the explanation is really a whole lot simpler: Good musicians who have complete command of their instrument, who have a vast listening experience that encompasses many different styles/genres/periods, and who are sensitive enough to know how to listen and what to listen for do this all the time. I'm not saying it's easy ...but it's way more impressive that people are capable of doing it using the tools they've developed as musicians than if it were due to some inexplicable form of telepathy.

 

[ElectroVibe]

I think animals have telepathy. My dog looks over at me in a funny way when I start to think of certain things.

Here is a good example with birds.

 

[hbarcat]

Very interesting . . . . .

 

[Stempelloos]

I think animals have telepathy. My dog looks over at me in a funny way when I start to think of certain things.

Here is a good example with birds.

Some form of communication or pre-programming is needed, but telephaty?