I'm not sure I'd trust the Nobel Committee to tell me which economists to believe... or which peace-makers.
Something we can ALL agree on..... FINALLY!
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US income inequality at record high
- Thread starter Tony Flow MMMM
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Something we can ALL agree on..... FINALLY!
I'm not sure I'd trust the Nobel Committee to tell me which economists to believe... or which peace-makers.
oh, absolutely...i was just clearing up WHICH Milton Friedman i was referring to, since you seemed a little confused...
you should NOT believe him because he won any prizes...you should believe him because he is, for the most part, RIGHT
and i throw out my question again to the group...have any of you read "FREE TO CHOOSE"?
just askin'
The UK for one. What's an NHS card?
Unless of course it's something new that was introduced this weekend. Sadly, I even have recent anecdotal evidence. My father was taken to hospital on Friday with a shattered wrist, the ambulance crew provided care without need for ID. They took him to the hospital, again, not needing ID before getting a bed and care.
A&E (ER) treatment is provided free to all, with no requirement for prior ID as far as I'm aware.
With having the 3rd highest population, beaten in number by only China and India, I'd certainly hope the US was up there with providing free care. Though both China and India provide universal-type systems of healthcare, I'm not familiar enough with either to give any numbers.
Some of those are relatively reasonable, though I dare say it's a difference in opinion there. Not familiar with Suny Purchase.
I should have added (via tax) in the original, obviously there isn't any service like that provided completelly free, money always has to come from somewhere, even if donated.
I can't comment on the special interest groups, though it's a shame if that's what's happening.
I'm married to a doctor who is a partner in a private practice. They are in meetings now to decide whether or not they will continue to take on new government assisted patients because the amount that the government thinks is "enough" for a doctor visit is a mere $25. That isn't enough per visit to pay the staff, maintain all the equipment to government standards, maintain all the records and paperwork to government standards (especially for those very same patients), do continuing ed and training, pay the bills, and bring some home for the family. Many of the practices in our area are not accepting new Medicaid patients, and finding creative ways to "fire" the ones they already have (although my wife's practice won't go that far). Those patients are then forced to go to doctors who work for public and/or university hospitals that get outside funding (usually from that same government) to make up the difference. And then the government will sit back and act as though their plan works beautifully. "Clearly that must be enough money per visit because those places are making it work. Never mind the big checks we send them on a regular basis as funding that has nothing whatsoever to do with making up the difference in what we pay them per visit and what it takes to stay afloat."
Any questions?
Tell you what. Let's go to government funded HVAC repair and see how the guys running those businesses do with government mandated $25 service call fees. Every body deserves to have a functioning heating and air system, right?
You ever met a mechanic that will have a look under the hood, an electrician that will take a look at your house then diagnose and fix the problem, or even a VET that will have a look at your DOG for TWENTY FIVE BUCKS???? Of course you haven't. But my wife isn't allowed to turn a profit without being seen as "evil" by many.
Never mind the fact that is takes another act of congress to even get the government to PAY those bills tiny little fees in less than six months (most of the time it's more). How many businesses you know that can afford to run six months or more behind on paid accounts?
Just more stuff that you are only allowed to consider if you are a "rich elitist fat cat hater of the poor". It is strange being married to an evil woman who wants everybody to die in the streets. She seemed nice when I met her.
Thanks for making it so clear. I do believe you forgot to mention the fortune she's paying in Malpractice Insurance.
One other thing I might mention. Many of these Docs do provide free services in clinics etc. many have even been so bold as to travel to Hatai to help the people there.
Providing real comfort to real people rather than sitting their arm chairs complaining.
oh, absolutely...i was just clearing up WHICH Milton Friedman i was referring to, since you seemed a little confused...
you should NOT believe him because he won any prizes...you should believe him because he is, for the most part, RIGHT
and i throw out my question again to the group...have any of you read "FREE TO CHOOSE"?
just askin'
Yes. It's was interesting how he made things understandable.
There is no such thing as a free lunch!
For lighter reading check out the Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
The thousands of borrowers from Washington Mutual that received loans based on nothing more than a pulse didn't really lose that much and I don't consider them victims. Our mariachi singer didn't have much to start with and probably ended up about the same. The mariachi dude started in an apartment, bought a house he couldn't afford, lost the house, and ended up back in an apartment. Not so much a victim to me.
The actual victims were the many thousands of stockholders such as the many posters here with 401k's, etc. that lost their retirements.
Well then, they certainly should have known better than to invest their hard-earned money in a multi-billion dollar bank that had been around over 100 years. It's their own stupid fault for investing for their retirement.
You're naive.
A lot of people were. Let's put aside the case of the mariachi musician. But there were certainly a lot of people who got in deeper than they could afford -- "normal" people with full time jobs.Strike 1. Most people don't understand money. The calculations for the cost of owning a house are complicated enough that most people can't figure it out. There is no simple formula for figuring out what you can afford, because it involves estimates of risk, and because there is no risk-free option when you consider opportunity cost.
Strike 2. Most people didn't understand the role of the banker. We are told from childhood that a bank is a trustworthy, conservative institution that will protect its assets, and that the banker is an authority figure. We go to his office, he enters a bunch of information into his computer, and tells you how much you can "afford." The truth is that the banker has turned into a high pressure salesman, and the bank isn't lending any money. They will sell the mortgage onto the secondary market as quickly as possible. The bank is not running on interest, but on fees. That's what consumer banking has turned into.
Strike 3. The secondary market was propped up by "ratings" that turned out to be fraudulent. This allowed institutional investors to funnel huge amounts of money into the market. They may have known that the ratings were specious, but the fund managers were just hoping to collect their bonuses and retire before the market collapsed.
Strike 1. Stupidity and gullibility.
Strike 2. Unethical salesmanship.
Strike 3. Outright fraud.
All of those factors were vital to creating the housing bubble. An ethical salesman, or an honest rating agency, could have shut the whole thing down instantly.
Now I'll admit that I have a bias here. The story about the mariachi musician is intended to focus attention on one player in this love triangle while absolving the others. But when there is a situation where multiple people are at fault, I tend to assign the highest level of responsibility to the person with the most knowledge and power -- the ringleader if you will. "To whom much is given, much will be required." Sure, many borrowers were outright dumb, and salesmen are salesmen, but the financial industry was the ringleader.
You're naive.
Strike 1. Most people don't understand money. The calculations for the cost of owning a house are complicated enough that most people can't figure it out. There is no simple formula for figuring out what you can afford, because it involves estimates of risk, and because there is no risk-free option when you consider opportunity cost.
Strike 2. Most people didn't understand the role of the banker. We are told from childhood that a bank is a trustworthy, conservative institution that will protect its assets, and that the banker is an authority figure. We go to his office, he enters a bunch of information into his computer, and tells you how much you can "afford." The truth is that the banker has turned into a high pressure salesman, and the bank isn't lending any money. They will sell the mortgage onto the secondary market as quickly as possible. The bank is not running on interest, but on fees. That's what consumer banking has turned into.
Strike 3. The secondary market was propped up by "ratings" that turned out to be fraudulent. This allowed institutional investors to funnel huge amounts of money into the market. They may have known that the ratings were specious, but the fund managers were just hoping to collect their bonuses and retire before the market collapsed.
Strike 1. Stupidity and gullibility.
Strike 2. Unethical salesmanship.
Strike 3. Outright fraud.
All of those factors were vital to creating the housing bubble. An ethical salesman, or an honest rating agency, could have shut the whole thing down instantly.
Now I'll admit that I have a bias here. The story about the mariachi musician is intended to focus attention on one player in this love triangle while absolving the others. But when there is a situation where multiple people are at fault, I tend to assign the highest level of responsibility to the person with the most knowledge and power -- the ringleader if you will. "To whom much is given, much will be required." Sure, many borrowers were outright dumb, and salesmen are salesmen, but the financial industry was the ringleader.
Interesting. Point one. So you feel people, since they do not understand money shouldn't be allowed to touch it? Just asking.
High pressure salesman? Please, I bought a house that was half the house I could afford and am glad I did. If needed it's a source of equity and a roof over my head that is much more affordable than an apartment in my area.
Don't blame the salesman. Be willing to stand up for yourself!
Outright fraud. Yes every person who signed for a mortgage they chose not to honor did commit fraud. It's in the past and I'm many of them will regret it next time housing takes off and the 100K mortgage they walked away from would have them living in a 500K house.
Seems I'm seeing a connection between WAMU and my personal life.. When I was 18 around 2007-2008 I was given a credit card from them with a 7k limit..
AMY GUESSES ON HOW THAT WENT?
AMY GUESSES ON HOW THAT WENT?
Let's see, you didn't use the card for fear of getting in debt but kept it for emergencies? Paying off any balance at the end of each month?
Uh, no.
That might have been a mistake. Opportunity cost.
In the US, failure to pay a debt is not considered to be fraud. AFAIK they got rid of debtors prisons sometime in the 19th century.
bingo.
The rule of thumb for investment used to be that it was reasonable to expect a long-term (non-volatile) investment to double its value in 12 years.
So, an investor starting off with a 401K portfolio valued @ $300k at its inception, should reasonably expect it value to be near $600k in 12 years.
A $300k 401K started in 2001 would likely be valued at $180k - $200k today.
That really left a bad taste in many mouths.
Not sure. Were you a stupid 18 year old? I got three of them left in a box on my dresser (along with shaving cream, gum, a coupon for Pepsi and a Bible) in my dorm room that totaled around $5K (this was 1989) and nothing happened because I never activated the accounts.
Sooooooooo if something went wrong with your $7K, it was the bank's fault?
I think we're pretty much establishing two camps here. One camp thinks we should regulate away any possibility of hurting oneself financially so that even the dumbest among us are protected. And the other thinks we should lean more towards the buyer beware days when we actually used to READ contracts or have an ATTORNEY look them over if we didn't understand them. (By the way, if you can't afford an attorney fee then you can't afford a house, a credit card or a new car.)
Unrepresented
Something Borderline Offensive
Call me naive again, but I'd much prefer to have a society with less attorneys.
Strange, seeing as all you see on the news these days is that nobody can figure out how the stock market is doing so well, while the economy as a whole is not. So, your 401K hasn't bounced back? Everybody I know seems to be back in the good. Now, if those people GOT OUT while their accounts were down, then they have reason to sing the blues. But if you rode it out with the rest of us you should be back in pretty good shape.
Even a tiny little account I have from a job I only had for a short time came back. When I discovered it in 2000 it was $7000. It went down to $4800. Now it sits at $9400. Not the doubled return you thought was a given (which never was in the first place) but at least back on top. (Oh crap. Another anecdote. Never mind. It couldn't have possibly happened if it didn't happen to everyone.)
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