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USB VS Firewire!

#21
bassybill said:
This is true to some extent, but the Firebox, though, is still a great device (a major upgrade to my US-122, anyway) and sounds dang good to me - especially as you can pick them up really cheap at the moment as they've just been replaced, so you're right about the prices. The Firestudio mobile is the same MSRP, but on ebay today you can buy the old version for about half the price of the new one ($150/$300). The Firebox is an absolute steal at that price if you can get one. I'm really pleased with mine (had it about a week).

Just for info - the latest drivers for the Firebox also upgrade the firmware in the device. When I did this it seemed to boost the mice pre's input sensitivity, but I couldn't be sure without testing this out properly and a) I don't think rolling back the drivers would also change the firmware back and b) I'm too lazy to try it. :D
Click to expand...

I agree that firebox is steal at that price. I own it too as a mobile interface. But still after getting the FS the conversion bugs me out a bit. It just won't get that tranparency which is most notable with the high range of bass and vocals. Also, I get more out of more expensive preamps with the new converters But one can make good sounding recordings on a firebox too and I've been happy to use it too so I may be nitpicking.

I'm not able to run a dynamic mic with the firebox though, even with newest updates and I haven't noticed any change in the input levels. So anyhow, if one wishes to use a low output dynamic mic with the FB then he must also get a separate preamp which sort of makes up for the price difference, especially since most of the cheap preamps are nothing but starved plate poop that won't generally sound better than the firebox pres. Well, vtb-1 might, but not by much and only because it can truly bypass the horrid little tube. Granted, the FS has hard time with a basic shure too, but at least it's possible to get proper levels. And the fs mobile is not a RME unit either, but I do think that the 300 dollar/ euro price is the best bang for the buck when it comes to sound quality for people who are running pc's.
 
#22
kevinmoore73 said:
If you look for multi-channel interfaces, you'll find that there are very few USB interfaces that can handle simultaneous recording of more than two channels. You won't find this limitation with FireWire.
Click to expand...

This is what I was going to ask. I've been using a Presonus FireBox with great results.

Now I have a need to record on more than two channels but the computer I just went to only has USB. So I'm trying to find a USB interface that sends four or more channels to the computer but I can't find anything.

Any recommendations?

LeonD
 
#23
LeonD said:
This is what I was going to ask. I've been using a Presonus FireBox with great results.

Now I have a need to record on more than two channels but the computer I just went to only has USB. So I'm trying to find a USB interface that sends four or more channels to the computer but I can't find anything.

Any recommendations?

LeonD
Click to expand...

Yes, don't get usb, especially for multitrack recording. A firewire card with a TI chip will set you back around 25 usd. 50 or so for a laptop and installing one shouldn't be a problem for anyone. But if you're set on going with usb, then m-audio fast track ultra would suit your needs. 4 pres and 6 line level inputs if I remember correctly.

Do you need four lines with preamps or will basic line ins do?
What are your quality requirements? Most small units have 2 pres and 2-6 line level inputs. The cheapest way I can figure is to buy a used small mixer, like mackie onyx and a fw card for the computer you're using and use the pres on the mixer. They're not great, but then again, very few cheap pres are, including the ones usually found on interfaces. That would get you 4 preamped lines to a firebox. All mono though.
 
#24
Firewire any day. Differences in the architecture of the two interfaces have a huge impact on the sustained throughput.



FireWire, uses a "Peer-to-Peer" architecture in which the peripherals are intelligent and can negotiate bus conflicts to determine which device can best control a data transfer.

Hi-Speed USB 2.0 uses a "Master-Slave" architecture in which the computer handles all arbitration functions and dictates data flow to, from and between the attached peripherals (adding additional system overhead and resulting in slower data flow control).

For sustained throughput firewire literally spanks the hell out of USB.

Now if you're talking external drives, I use neither. e-SATA (SATA II), a whole 'nother level.
 
#26
Kipaste said:
I agree that firebox is steal at that price. I own it too as a mobile interface. But still after getting the FS the conversion bugs me out a bit. It just won't get that tranparency which is most notable with the high range of bass and vocals. Also, I get more out of more expensive preamps with the new converters But one can make good sounding recordings on a firebox too and I've been happy to use it too so I may be nitpicking.

I'm not able to run a dynamic mic with the firebox though, even with newest updates and I haven't noticed any change in the input levels. So anyhow, if one wishes to use a low output dynamic mic with the FB then he must also get a separate preamp which sort of makes up for the price difference, especially since most of the cheap preamps are nothing but starved plate poop that won't generally sound better than the firebox pres. Well, vtb-1 might, but not by much and only because it can truly bypass the horrid little tube. Granted, the FS has hard time with a basic shure too, but at least it's possible to get proper levels. And the fs mobile is not a RME unit either, but I do think that the 300 dollar/ euro price is the best bang for the buck when it comes to sound quality for people who are running pc's.
Click to expand...
I'm a bit confused now. You say you won't get enough signal for the Firebox with a dynamic mic, but then you seem to say you can get by (even if only just) with a basic Shure. Could you clarify a bit please, as I'm just learning about this stuff?

Using my only working mic (a really old Beyer dynamic), I tried out the levels on the Firebox. Using a jack lead (which bypasses the Firebox mic pres), setting the input level on the front of the Firebox to around 2 o'clock gave a signal level in Reaper of just under 0dB, when singing/squawking at usual volume and with usual mic technique (ie, bad). This was without the 12 dB boost.

Switching to an XLR cable to engage the mic pre seemed to give me about an extra 6 dB (does that sound about right?) when I swapped back and forth to A/B levels. This meant the level control on the Firebox with this mic running into the XLR needed to be about 12 o'clock to give a useable level in Reaper. There was some noise, but it was pretty low down compared to the signal.

In other words, plugging a dynamic mic into the XLR mic pre input and setting the level to about halfway gave a decent signal level for recording. (bolded in case you skimmed the rest of this over long post) This seems about right to me? I can't really see how an extra boost would help any - although I am far from an expert, as can be confirmed by a glance at my pathetically meagre mic collection. :D
 
#27
bassybill said:
I'm a bit confused now. You say you won't get enough signal for the Firebox with a dynamic mic, but then you seem to say you can get by (even if only just) with a basic Shure. Could you clarify a bit please, as I'm just learning about this stuff?

Using my only working mic (a really old Beyer dynamic), I tried out the levels on the Firebox. Using a jack lead (which bypasses the Firebox mic pres), setting the input level on the front of the Firebox to around 2 o'clock gave a signal level in Reaper of just under 0dB, when singing/squawking at usual volume and with usual mic technique (ie, bad). This was without the 12 dB boost.

Switching to an XLR cable to engage the mic pre seemed to give me about an extra 6 dB (does that sound about right?) when I swapped back and forth to A/B levels. This meant the level control on the Firebox with this mic running into the XLR needed to be about 12 o'clock to give a useable level in Reaper. There was some noise, but it was pretty low down compared to the signal.

In other words, plugging a dynamic mic into the XLR mic pre input and setting the level to about halfway gave a decent signal level for recording. (bolded in case you skimmed the rest of this over long post) This seems about right to me? I can't really see how an extra boost would help any - although I am far from an expert, as can be confirmed by a glance at my pathetically meagre mic collection. :D
Click to expand...

Oh I'm sorry if I was unclear, I'm not a native speaker so I can be a bit off sometimes. And I'm by no means a pro either.

May I ask what kind of a beyerdynamic do you have? Mics have very differend output levels. Many mics work well with the firebox, but I don't think that applies to the basic workhorses from shure. They can be recorded, but problems can appear when processing the track.

I must admit that I'm a bit confused with what you said about the jack lead vs. xlr. Do you mean that using a normal 1/4" jack would bypass the pres when connected to the preamp input or do you mean the line level inputs in the backpanel? The normal 1/4 jack won't bypass the preamps if inserted to the preamp input. You can just plug your bass into the pre and control the volume with the preamp knob.

Anyhow, I think what threw you off with my last post was the abbreviations FS and FB. I meant the firestudio can just about cope with a basic shure unlike the firebox. It's actually possible to get a loud enough signal from the firebox too, but it means cranking the pres to spinal tap levels. It results in hiss and reduced audio quality. Now that itself could be ok in some context, but the bad side is that it's really difficult to process that recording. Compression will take "esses" to ear piercing levels and enhance all those negative effects and really getting that recorded track to fit in the mix can prove to be very difficult. Or atleast it would be for me as I'm no pro, quite the opposite actually when it comes to mixing.

The firebox pres are a big problem only when recording vocals since even though I hate starved plate stuff, the basic tubemp between the firebox and the sm57 that sits in front of a bass cab does the job of getting the signal to the computer with good levels and costs only about 30-40 usd/euros. It adds a little "sand" to the sound, but with most instruments I think it's tolerable. Or even a decent DI box will do. But I wouldn't use one on vocals as to me the firebox pres sound cleaner and better when recording vocals with a large diagram condenser than a tubemp. They require some acoustic treatments to get the best out of them though. But I really love dynamic mics for certain types of vocals. sm7b is simply a stunning mic for many rock/rap vocalists as it's fat and warm sounding, very much unlike most budget ldc's. And since there are plenty of ways working around that gain issue, I still think the main advantage of the FS over the FB is the conversion. Simply because of the pres I wouldn't pay extra to get the firestudio instead of the firebox.
 
#28
Kipaste said:
I must admit that I'm a bit confused with what you said about the jack lead vs. xlr. Do you mean that using a normal 1/4" jack would bypass the pres when connected to the preamp input or do you mean the line level inputs in the backpanel? The normal 1/4 jack won't bypass the preamps if inserted to the preamp input. You can just plug your bass into the pre and control the volume with the preamp knob.
Click to expand...
The first bit of that is what I meant.

I think this might explain why you're finding extra pre-amplification necessary with the Firebox, on which the front input are combination female jack/female XLR connectors. Plugging in a jack does indeed bypass the built-in mic pres on each of the two and sends the signal through a different, lower gain pre-amp stage. To route the signal through the actual mic pres, you need to plug your mic in using a cable with an XLR plug on the end. From the Firebox manual:

INSTRUMENT INPUTS (Channels 1 and 2): The ¼” TS connector on channels 1
and 2 are for use with an instrument (guitar, bass, and etc.). When an instrument is
plugged into the instrument input, the microphone preamplifier is bypassed and the
FIREBOX becomes an active instrument preamplifier.
Click to expand...

It looks like these are actually different inputs, yes? In the specs at the back of the manual, it lists separate input impedances of 1.3 k ohms for the pre-amp (XLR) connections and 1 M ohms for the instrument (jack) connections (the line inputs on the back are 10k).

I hope that helps. And thanks for clearing up the confusion about abbreviations - I had read FS as FB in part of your earlier post. Your English is excellent, btw. :)

EDIT - I just noticed the following in the manual. Note that this refers to the front panel inputs channels 1 and 2 and not the rear line level inputs channels 3 and 4.

Presonus said:
Microphone Input XLR: 45dB of variable gain (+14dB to +55dB)
Instrument HiZ Input TS ¼” (channels 1 and 2 only): 45dB variable
gain (+8dB to +50dB)
Click to expand...

That might explain why I seemed to find about 6dB difference between the two inputs yesterday (see post #26).

I don't know what the model number of my Beyer mic is, btw. It just says "Beyer" on the band around the windshield. I know that it's very old (my Dad bought it for his PA years ago). It's a dynamic mic with a spherical windshield. I also have two Shures of about the same age, neither of which is currently working for me to be able to test them (with one of them, I think it's just the cable that needs fixing). I can take pics and post them if anyone is interested in antique mics. :D
 
#29
Ooh, I stand corrected. It does indeed change the way the preamp works. Oddly enough, even as a bass player, I've never actually looked at general output levels of bass guitars, I just figured they were somewhere along the lines of condenser mics.

However, I've never used a 1/4" jack with a microphone, always a xlr cable and I still stand by my statement about running a shure with firebox pres simply because of my and several other peoples experience when it comes to getting a signal that is quiet enough for post processing. For example, the 57/58 have roughly the same specs: around -55 dBV/Pa. This means that if you're recording a sound of 94 dB, which is way louder than many singers in recording conditions, around the same as a pneumatic drill, the maximun level that can be achieved with the preamps on full and the digital gain activated is around +2 dBV. Now for my taste, the firebox pres become unusable when the knob is turned over three o'clock position when recording vocals (again, greater gain might just about work if left unprocessed, but not if there is going to be heavy compression) and the digital gain doesn't usually help much when trying to get optimal recording when it comes to noise. I only use it with line level inputs where it works very well. Well anyhow, my vocals never top 80 dB. The female singer I usually work with is usually around 55-70 dB in some cases even lower. That explains why the shure doesn't do it at least for my needs when used with a firebox. I do admit that I'd never shove a 58 in front of a female vocalist when recording. But my all time favourite dynamic, the sm7b which I think is a brilliant mic when needing fat and warm sounds is even lower output than the standard 57/58 and simply impossible to operate with the firebox unless singing at about 100 dB and even then it would be a pain in the butt to process.

Then again, for example, the AT 4047 condenser has output of -35, meaning about maximum of +20 dBV from the firebox and therefore being almost 30 times louder than the shure when the preamp is cranked so it works perfectly when it comes to getting relatively low noise signal from the firebox.
 
#31
My understanding is that Firewire is bidirectional or 'full-duplex' meaning it can send/receive simultaneously and that USB 1.1 and 2.0 are half-duplex, meaning it can only send or receive separately and not simultaneously.

That being said, I've owned a handful of Firewire and USB audio devices and I've liked the firewire devices better. I even got a firewire PCMCIA card for my Dell laptop (which is running OS X hehe) so I can use my firewire interfaces on it instead of my USB interfaces.
 
#32
Kipaste said:
Ooh, I stand corrected. It does indeed change the way the preamp works. Oddly enough, even as a bass player, I've never actually looked at general output levels of bass guitars, I just figured they were somewhere along the lines of condenser mics.

However, I've never used a 1/4" jack with a microphone, always a xlr cable and I still stand by my statement about running a shure with firebox pres simply because of my and several other peoples experience when it comes to getting a signal that is quiet enough for post processing. For example, the 57/58 have roughly the same specs: around -55 dBV/Pa. This means that if you're recording a sound of 94 dB, which is way louder than many singers in recording conditions, around the same as a pneumatic drill, the maximun level that can be achieved with the preamps on full and the digital gain activated is around +2 dBV. Now for my taste, the firebox pres become unusable when the knob is turned over three o'clock position when recording vocals (again, greater gain might just about work if left unprocessed, but not if there is going to be heavy compression) and the digital gain doesn't usually help much when trying to get optimal recording when it comes to noise. I only use it with line level inputs where it works very well. Well anyhow, my vocals never top 80 dB. The female singer I usually work with is usually around 55-70 dB in some cases even lower. That explains why the shure doesn't do it at least for my needs when used with a firebox. I do admit that I'd never shove a 58 in front of a female vocalist when recording. But my all time favourite dynamic, the sm7b which I think is a brilliant mic when needing fat and warm sounds is even lower output than the standard 57/58 and simply impossible to operate with the firebox unless singing at about 100 dB and even then it would be a pain in the butt to process.

Then again, for example, the AT 4047 condenser has output of -35, meaning about maximum of +20 dBV from the firebox and therefore being almost 30 times louder than the shure when the preamp is cranked so it works perfectly when it comes to getting relatively low noise signal from the firebox.
Click to expand...
Thsi thread has induced severe microphone GAS for me to experiment a bit more. I'm not much of a singer so I rarely record vocals, but I've been experimenting with my crappy old mics this week and decided to get something a bit better. Time for a new thread to avoid a derail... anyway, just popped in here to say I still don't seem to be having any trouble getting adequate levels with my new dynamic mic (AKG D77S) into the Firebox mic pres. Maybe I'll understand this all a bit better when I get my new condenser mic with a higher output level.
 
#35
santucci218 said:
just wanted to check back in here. I got the firebox, its great! I wish it had a power button on the back though, but the quality is quite amazing! now if i could only master cubase like did adobe audition :crying:
Click to expand...
Did you get the Presonus Cubase LE4 tutorial DVD in with your Firebox? Well worth a look, it will get you up and running pretty quick.

Or you could download Reaper and get something A LOT more powerful (for the $60 license, if you decide to keep using it - evaluation is full featured and free for 30 days). And I really do mean A LOT. But be prepared to work real hard at it. I switched because I wanted something that I wouldn't "outgrow" and thought I might as well learn it now as spend more time with Cubase and then have to re-learn it all later.

That said, for simple stuff Reaper is a stroll in the park. It's just what it's ultimately capable of that's a bit daunting.
 
#36
ill have to check out reaper. i just like the presets in adobe because i can get a decent sound very very quickly. cubase, i dont even know where the mixing and eqing tools are yet! haha. im pretty unfamiliar to it all. so you use reaper exclusively instead of the free cubase le4 you got with your firebox?
 
#37
santucci218 said:
so you use reaper exclusively instead of the free cubase le4 you got with your firebox?
Click to expand...
I do now.

When I wiped and reinstalled everything to upgrade my HDD, I didn't bother to reinstall Cubase - just stuck wth Reaper (and Sibelius for when I'm working with notation).

Cubase LE4 isn't bad or anything. It's just not as powerful as a fully fledged DAW program. You can still do a hell of a lot with it, though.
 
#39
Beware that firewire interfaces work best with firewire ports that have a Texas Instruments chipset. With cheaper chipsets like Ricoh, firewire units can have a lot of problems. Motu even talks about this on their website.

Too bad I didn't know this before I bought my recent computer. This is why I'm currently still using USB. The good thing is that I've never had any latency problems with the USB 1.1 unit I'm using, although the headroom does suck. If I had a choice, I would go with a firewire unit, as these seem to the best all-around and that's where manufacturers are concetrating their efforts.

If you are going firewire, and you're PC, I hear nothing but great things about the RME Fireface 400 and 800, but they're kind of expensive. You get what you pay for, though. If you're an Mac user, why not take out a second mortgage and get an Apogee?
 

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