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Vail Johnson
- Thread starter Munjibunga
- Start date
Is Invalid Link Removed what you're referring to?
How is that WAY out of line?
I see a reasoned and vigorous defense of his chosen art form.
+1
There's some youtube material out there in which Pat Metheny addresses pretty much the same question that he is being asked in this printed interview.
I think Metheny he goes too far when proposing others join his boycott but it's his call.
I think of Kenny G. as a pop musician who uses one style of the jazz idiom to appeal to a large segment of the general public. I don't see how he impacts real jazz musicians in any way; I suspect most of his fans would not enjoy anything more 'challenging' or complex, or anything that diverges from the extremely familiar and formulaic style he plays in.
That being said, I strongly believe this is irrelevant to the question raised in the other thread and I don't see why it's okay to insult a musician for his tastes or for the tastes of his employer.
I'm still fascinated by the virulence of Vail's reaction, though, and a bit sorry he felt so put upon. I'm sure he really does want to contribute his experience in a helpful way, maybe he's just unaware of how he came across.
I've learned a lot from extremely blunt people in the past, after usually after I've gotten over my knee-jerk negative reaction; but humility and quiet confidence are a far more effective way to reach others IMO.
There is a very powerful phenomenon that exists in Swedish society in general that is called the 'tall poppy' syndrome, whereby anyone who openly displays exceptional talent, riches, popularity, etc., is chopped down and roundly criticized and belittled for being different as a poppy plant that grows higher than its neighbours would be cut down. It freaked me out when I lived and worked there, and undermined my self-confidence greatly. I wonder if some of Vail's reaction comes from a belief of his that this is what motivated the beef some have had with him on that thread.
Anyway, who knows? Hope he still feels he can post here, I'd hate to think I was part of scaring ANYONE away, though it's a level playing field and he should expect the same knocks as anyone else.
I think of Kenny G. as a pop musician who uses one style of the jazz idiom to appeal to a large segment of the general public. I don't see how he impacts real jazz musicians in any way; I suspect most of his fans would not enjoy anything more 'challenging' or complex, or anything that diverges from the extremely familiar and formulaic style he plays in.
That being said, I strongly believe this is irrelevant to the question raised in the other thread and I don't see why it's okay to insult a musician for his tastes or for the tastes of his employer.
I'm still fascinated by the virulence of Vail's reaction, though, and a bit sorry he felt so put upon. I'm sure he really does want to contribute his experience in a helpful way, maybe he's just unaware of how he came across.
I've learned a lot from extremely blunt people in the past, after usually after I've gotten over my knee-jerk negative reaction; but humility and quiet confidence are a far more effective way to reach others IMO.
There is a very powerful phenomenon that exists in Swedish society in general that is called the 'tall poppy' syndrome, whereby anyone who openly displays exceptional talent, riches, popularity, etc., is chopped down and roundly criticized and belittled for being different as a poppy plant that grows higher than its neighbours would be cut down. It freaked me out when I lived and worked there, and undermined my self-confidence greatly. I wonder if some of Vail's reaction comes from a belief of his that this is what motivated the beef some have had with him on that thread.
Anyway, who knows? Hope he still feels he can post here, I'd hate to think I was part of scaring ANYONE away, though it's a level playing field and he should expect the same knocks as anyone else.
Not to defend Mr. Johnson (he does it himself with the rigor of a honey badger -- I think he threatened to throttle me a few years ago), but isn't there a Tall Poppy Syndrome here in TalkBass? Having been a member here for over 10 years, I've seen it happen to Jeff Berlin (the first time -- he forgot about it and came back), Dann Glenn, and Carol Kay. Not that these musicians didn't add their own fuel to the fire, but some TB members seem to go after a prominent bassist with a special vehemence.
Kenny G is a house hold name. Ask the average guy to name a sax player and most likely
that is the only name he would know.
I wonder what Vail uses for an amp?
that is the only name he would know.
I wonder what Vail uses for an amp?
That's what I was getting at. Of course it exists here to a degree.
IMO anyone in their position should just take the high road and not engage those who try and bait them. Harder than it sounds, I'm sure, but I bet they get the same mixture of brown-nosers, haters and everything in between in real life as well, so they should know how to handle it.
I'm familiar with Vail's posts in the other sections of this forum and they were mostly all very helpful and civil, no wonder they were better received than the one being discussed here. No threats of violence, either, which is nice.
Thought-provoking, but you named some people who have rather strident personalities. There are many other "tall poppies" here on TalkBass who haven't been subjected to trimming. Everyone knows they stand above, and they get a lot of respect here. But they don't poke a stick in the hornet's nest, either.
True, Munji, I did name some people with strident personalities, including the subject of this thread.
That's probably the biggest reason he invokes such ire from many musicians, I would be willing to bet. Not out of jealousy but out of a sense of the sheer unfairness of it.
My cover band is made up of musicians who all have other full-time jobs, and musically we are way behind most of the other bands that come through or are from here, but we have the biggest following, get paid more, and get asked to play the biggest gigs because we put on a better show and have a better sense of exactly what songs the crowd here wants. It's not fair to the musicians who pay more dues and have spent far longer on their craft than us, but it's just the way it is. I'm not saying they care and I doubt they do but if they did I'd agree with them that it's a bum rap in some ways.
RedLeg
Supporting Member
Here is my only dealing with Vail.
#1. The guy has chops.
It was the early 90's and he was doing a bass clinic at alta loma music in California. I was just learning about jazz. After watching him masturbate with a bass for 20 minutes he says "Name your favorite bass player and I will emulate him!". Some guy says "Rocco Prestia" and he plays what is hip with the horn hits and some chordal stuff. I am in the back and I Yell out "Charles Mingus", expecting to hear goodbye porkpie or fables of fabus. He says to me "Elvis, get this kid outa here, haha". I was only into jazz, my roots were punk rock, so I yell back "I said Charles Mingus, what are you deaf?" He comes back with "Elvis doesn't play bass". I yell back yet again "I guess you are f@#kin arrogant and deaf, go back to Kenny you a$$". He brushes me off with and proceeds to begin masturbate with his bass again.
The moral:
He can play, but whada d1ck!
Special Note on Kenny G
My first sergeant is a sax player and he abhors that man. I honestly think he wants to do bad things to that man. But I am reminded that the best musicians aren't always rewarded proportionally. There is much more to the music industry than actually being able to play. I don't like the mans music either, but I respect his marketability. Pat shouldn't hate on a lesser musician making more while being considered "his" style of "jazz" in the record store. there will always be lesser musicians reaping unfair rewards, and there will always be the Pat Metheny's out there to hate him for it.
#1. The guy has chops.
It was the early 90's and he was doing a bass clinic at alta loma music in California. I was just learning about jazz. After watching him masturbate with a bass for 20 minutes he says "Name your favorite bass player and I will emulate him!". Some guy says "Rocco Prestia" and he plays what is hip with the horn hits and some chordal stuff. I am in the back and I Yell out "Charles Mingus", expecting to hear goodbye porkpie or fables of fabus. He says to me "Elvis, get this kid outa here, haha". I was only into jazz, my roots were punk rock, so I yell back "I said Charles Mingus, what are you deaf?" He comes back with "Elvis doesn't play bass". I yell back yet again "I guess you are f@#kin arrogant and deaf, go back to Kenny you a$$". He brushes me off with and proceeds to begin masturbate with his bass again.
The moral:
He can play, but whada d1ck!
Special Note on Kenny G
My first sergeant is a sax player and he abhors that man. I honestly think he wants to do bad things to that man. But I am reminded that the best musicians aren't always rewarded proportionally. There is much more to the music industry than actually being able to play. I don't like the mans music either, but I respect his marketability. Pat shouldn't hate on a lesser musician making more while being considered "his" style of "jazz" in the record store. there will always be lesser musicians reaping unfair rewards, and there will always be the Pat Metheny's out there to hate him for it.
)
RedLeg
Supporting Member
Here's a funny thing. I read this story, and don't get that Vail was being a d1ck at all. Kinda like my reaction to went on over in the amp thread as well.
/rick
RedLeg
Supporting Member
I guess context, tone, and attitude was everything that day. I felt he was a d1ck. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, clarified what I said, yet he still mocked me. So efF that guy. You are of course entitled to your opinion.
