Double Bass VARNISH MATTERS

[B. Graham]

I went with Burnt Sienna artist oils as the glaze, and it's transparent. It went on great. The hue right now is somewhat akin to Charlie Haden's bass in the Gallien-Krueger ad. I'd like to go a little more brown. I assume that I can apply another glaze coat over the Sienna, once the first coat is dry. Is this ok?

Thanks.

I forgot to say that if you use a gel stain, I think it would be ok to use the clear gel over it. But unless there is something in the TruOil that is stripping the glaze, I would think that the glaze isn't completely dry.

Be sure your Burnt Sienna is transparent!

 

[1st Bass]

One of the reasons I apply a thin coat of varnish between glaze coats is to ensure that, IF I need to back off and remove some or all of the current glaze coat, I can do so without disturbing the first one. Perhaps it is unneccesary.

On the other hand, I also mix a little varnish (enough to make it soupy) with my oil paints, and a few drops of linseed oil, to stretch my working time. That way I can brush the glaze on, getting it pretty much where I want, and as dark as I want, then work it with my fingers as it begins to dry. You can feel it begin to "go off", as it becomes less mobile-- then it is time to stop. After it becomes tacky, I "pat" the glaze coat with my fingertips hundreds of times, leaving no streaks or spots, as each pat transfers a little pigment, and spreads it evenly. The result is fairly transparent (I use Brown Madder alizarin, but I am told it has been discontinued, so I am looking for alternatives). I use yellow varnish over the glaze, mostly...sometimes brown or clear.

Michael Darnton uses tar as a colorant in his varnish, which really does darken the varnish. It is a dark brown when dissolved in turpentine. Doesn't take a lot to darken the varnish quite a bit. Apparently some folk have had trouble with drying, when using tar, but it worked well for me, the only time I tried it.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

Hey Martin, I would be surprised if there is anyone here besides you and me who are stupid enough to make thier own varnish and grounds from scratch.

You might be surprised, Bob, by how some of us admire that stupidity and have every ambition to be that stupid themselves...

 

[B. Graham]

If I need to add more color to the reddish I've got now, should I go ahead and add a coat of Tru Oil beforehand?

Thanks.

One of the reasons I apply a thin coat of varnish between glaze coats is to ensure that, IF I need to back off and remove some or all of the current glaze coat, I can do so without disturbing the first one. Perhaps it is unneccesary.

 

[1st Bass]

I've never used Tru-oil, so I couldn't say. I use either the oil varnish from International Luthiers, or from International Violin Co. or another oil varnish. I use either brown or yellow. Also, I have found that it works better to buy the powdered oil-soluble dyes, and color the varnish myself-- the "dark brown" varnish from ILS dries orange.

Michael Darnton starts with a very thin solution of orange shellac, thinned to a water consistency with alcohol, and soaks that in as best he can. That adds some color and seals the wood. After that, the only color he uses is the tar, warmed up with Dark Crimson alizarine pigment ground in oil, from Kremer. He gets some great color (check his website)-- I have only tried that process once, but was pretty pleased. He does not glaze, but if one wanted to add a glaze between early coats, that would still work well.

I'v attached a photo of part of the back of the same violin from the previous post. The flame was minimal, but you can see it.

DO let any glaze coat get completely dry, before proceeding. Also, any glaze coats should be VERY thin-- they add more color than you think they will, but in order to be transparent, they have to be thin. Incidentally, to get a red-brown color, you add purple, not red. It is very easy to end up with a pink instrument. :-(

As someone else pointed out, a violin or viola is much easier, because they are tiny by comparison...I expect that when I varnish this bass, I will be learning a great deal.

 

[Martin Sheridan]

Quote:

"Michael Darnton starts with a very thin solution of orange shellac, thinned to a water consistency with alcohol, and soaks that in as best he can. That adds some color and seals the wood. After that, the only color he uses is the tar, warmed up with Dark Crimson alizarine pigment ground in oil, from Kremer. He gets some great color (check his website)-- I have only tried that process once, but was pretty pleased. He does not glaze, but if one wanted to add a glaze between early coats, that would still work well."

Michael Darnton, for those of you who don't know of him, is a well known violin maker working in Chicago. I'm surprised to hear he's using tar because it has been credited with turning varnishes black after some years. In other words it looks great to begin with but over a period of years the varnish turns black or so it is said. Like many other things in this field many claims are made that have no foundation in fact, but I've stayed away from tar for that reason.

 

[Martin Sheridan]

Hey Martin, I would be surprised if there is anyone here besides you and me who are stupid enough to make thier own varnish and grounds from scratch.

Bob,
Actually I'd love to hear from anyone using prepared varnishes and grounds. I've often thought that there must be some really good stuff available off the shelf and actually most of what I use is e.g. TruOil, shellac, artist colors.

However most of the other things I've tried I've been pretty disappointed with the results. Many are designed for use with furniture and they work well for that, but don't look right on instruments. I started out using the prepared oil varnishes made in Germany, and well, they look commercial German. I don't want my basses or violins looking like something commercially produced in Germany.

However, when our comrades talk about Waterlox and Danish Wood Oil then they've got my attention, but Arnold, Jeff, Nick et al are you using these on yoiur instruments or just recommending them as an easy solution to a complex problem for beginners?

 

[Dr Rod]

Potassium Dicromate darkens the wood and makes it look old.

It can also make lower quality ebony look a bit more palatable.

 

[Dr Rod]

How do you achieve a Craquele varnish?

Thanks

 

[Martin Sheridan]

I've seen crackle on many instruments where it was not intended! Too much oil in the varnish mix is, I believe, one cause, and another might be too much terpentine?

You can put a fast drying alchohol varnish over a slower drying oil varnish, and I think you can even buy products sold to achieve a crackle effect.

Since I've never been very fond of it, I haven't tried to get it that look in my varnish.

In the book, Violin Varnishes by Hammerl I think they describe a method. My copy disappeared some years back, so I'm not a hundred percent sure.

There is another product sold by Howard Core & CO. called Imitor that I think is made to do this.

Sorry, I can't be of more help on this one!

 

[FredH]

What is the difference in Spirit Varnish and Shellac? And what would be more appropriate for using in a French polish finish?

I striped my back-up bass, the old finish was terrible, appears to have been applied with a sprayer and they went too heavy. It had cracks allover and bubbles in the joints. I could have lived with that but it was so thick I believe it was adversely affecting the sound.

Anyway in a moment of rashness I stripped it down to the wood. I asked a friend and he recommended that I use spirit varnish and apply it using the French polish method. Every reference I have found speaks of using shellac with this method.

Is varnish a generic term and is “lac suspended in an alcohol solution” a spirit varnish?

Also I have been told to cover the wood with a thinned hide glue solution before the finishing coats, can anyone tell me the proportions for this thinned glue?

I have also seen mention of oiling the wood to bring out depth in the grain before applying varnish, would this inhibit the adhesion of the covering?

I have looked through many discussions and there is a lot of good stuff. Hopefully someone can answer my questions.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Got hours to waste online? Head over to the Pegbox at www.maestronet.com and use the search button. Its been discussed zillions of time over there.

 

[Martin Sheridan]

What is the difference in Spirit Varnish and Shellac? And what would be more appropriate for using in a French polish finish?

I striped my back-up bass, the old finish was terrible, appears to have been applied with a sprayer and they went too heavy. It had cracks allover and bubbles in the joints. I could have lived with that but it was so thick I believe it was adversely affecting the sound.

Anyway in a moment of rashness I stripped it down to the wood. I asked a friend and he recommended that I use spirit varnish and apply it using the French polish method. Every reference I have found speaks of using shellac with this method.

Is varnish a generic term and is “lac suspended in an alcohol solution” a spirit varnish?

Also I have been told to cover the wood with a thinned hide glue solution before the finishing coats, can anyone tell me the proportions for this thinned glue?

I have also seen mention of oiling the wood to bring out depth in the grain before applying varnish, would this inhibit the adhesion of the covering?

I have looked through many discussions and there is a lot of good stuff. Hopefully someone can answer my questions.

I think I answered most of these questions in the original post on how to make a seedlac varnish. Any resin that is soluable in alcohol produces an alcohol varnish, shellac is one of many.
Most varnishers do not recommend using glue as a sizing because its ability to absorb moisture may cause problems later on. However, many varnishers do so, so take your pick.
You don't want to French Polish the instrument from the wood up because you could never get enough color into the varnish this way.
Go back and read my article above on making seedlac varnish and the later thread on using an Oil Varnish like TruOil, the glazing method etc.
Also, the suggestion about checking out Maestronet is a good idea especially if you really want to get confused.
After reading the above more closely, if you have any more questions ask away.

 

[Martin Sheridan]

Here's another varnish for those who want to use a spirit varnish, but don't want to make their own. It's Behlen's violin varnish. It's sold by most of the woodworking catalog people. I know makers who swear it is better than anything they've ever made. It looks a lot like an oil varnish when it dries.

 

[Mudfuzz]

Ok Martin you asked me to post how I mixed and applied the Waterlox based finish to my bass so here it is

I took Arnold's advise given on this forum and tried whaterlox colored with artist oils. Most of what I did was "based" on what Ken McKay posted in a thread on MIMF.com called "What is your favorite varnish pigment or color for violins?"
This is what Ken said

I learned a glazing method using artist oil colors over a couple coats of terpine varnish. Burnt umber and brown madder mixed with some varnish to make a glaze applied first. The point where the glaze is _just_ dry enough is when another clear coat of varnish is applied which is crucial in making it transparent and homogenous. Another glaze is applied with another mix of artist oil paints, which I would need to look up in my notes.

I think this is a good way to get an old cremona look that the average person would think looks good. I refinished a lot of old bass violins this way.

And here is what I did.
Materials used:
Waterlox High Gloss
Naphtha
Gamblin Artist’s oil Colors

1. “ground” - "wash coat" = 25%-75% Waterlox to naphtha mix; a small amount of turmeric was added to the naphtha a day before mixing to add a bit of gold color. And yes I strained it!

2. Glaze #1: 60%-40% Waterlox to Naphtha mix with a added 8% of Gamblin Alizarin Crimson was added for color, This was applied by hand [my hand were red for days], clear coat of 75%-25% Waterlox to Naphtha mix was then applied

Bass was then let to sit for a few days then sanded to 250 grit.

3. Glaze#2: 60%-40% Waterlox to Naphtha mix with a added 8% of Gamblin Alizarin Crimson, 4% of Gamblin Chromatic Black and 5% Gamblin Alizarin Violet were added for color; this was applied by hand again but ONLY to the scroll, top and sides, clear coat of 75%-25% Waterlox to Naphtha mix was then applied

Bass was then let to sit for a few days then sanded to 250 grit.

4. Glaze #3: 60%-40% Waterlox to Naphtha mix with a added 2% of Gamblin Alizarin Crimson, 8% of Gamblin Chromatic Black and 10% Gamblin Alizarin Violet were added for color; this was applied by hand again but ONLY to the scroll and top, clear coat of 75%-25% Waterlox to Naphtha mix was then applied.

Bass was then let to sit for a few days then sanded to 250 grit.

5. 3 clear coats of 75%-25% Waterlox to Naphtha mix to whole bass.

6. The top wasn’t getting the look I wanted so I sanded it in places with 200 grit down to the Alizarin Crimson coat in places to give the bass a worn and old look.

7. 2 clear coats of 80%-20% Waterlox to Naphtha mix to the top.

8. Fine sanding to whole bass, grits: 200-300-400-600-800-rotten stone.

9. Because of the dark color of the top scratches were still visible so a final buffing with novus 2 fine scratch remover.

That’s about it really, any questions, comments, insults.

Oh, and here it is

 

[Martin Sheridan]

Thanks Aaron for your posting your valuable addition to Varnish Matters.
How did you decide the percentage of oil color?

 

[Mudfuzz]

How did you decide the percentage of oil color?

Mostly by testing on scrap first: add a little, test, put it in the sun to kick off a bit, add a clear coat, let kick, look at it. I also found that when I had it right the mixture had a fingerprint like feel when you put you fingers to it. I was trying to keep the color amount at 20% or less though, any more made it hard to apply evenly.

Oh also I found it worked better if you first mixed the Oils with the waterlox and then the thinner, more even blending.

 

[MollyKay]

I know this is an older thread but we are just now getting to the stage where we can use all this valuable information. My 1937 American Standard bass is finally ready for varnish…it has been a long process of repairs and prep work to get it this far…but here is what we (my husband and I) have done.

1. First coat on the bass was straight Waterlox medium sheen with no pigment
2. Second coat was Waterlox tinted with Winsor & Newton Yellow Ochre
3. Third coat was Waterlox tinted with Winsor & Newton Burnt Sienna
4. Fourth coat was Waterlox tinted with Winsor & Newton Burnt Umber
5. Fifth coat was a glaze coat of Raw Umber thinned with Waterlox
6. Sixth coat was Waterlox tinted with Burnt Umber and Alizarian Crimson
7. Black Pin strip was added, hand painted with Winsor & Newton Lamp Black thinned slightly
8. Seventh coat was Waterlox heavily tinted with Raw Umber and Burnt Umber
9. Eighth and ninth coat are straight Waterlox
10. Finished was rubbed out with rottenstone (sp?) to cut the sheen


I think we are almost done with the varnishing stage. Each coat of Waterlox was handed apply very lightly with a linen cloth (you can see the pixs of the shades we came up with, the colors stained the cloth). Between each coat the bass was sanded very lightly and rubbed with a tack cloth. We have an almost dust free finish.
This varnishing process is quite a learning experience but it has been very, very satisfying. The repairs on this bass (and there were not a lot) have all but disappeared. This bass is not as dark as I would like it to be…I would have loved to have the rich dark brown Marshall Wilborn has on his vintage 1941 AS bass…but we will settle for what we have. We also did NOT go for the vintage sunburst that many AS basses have.

Next step is set up; we will cut a new bridge (all other repairs and set up work has been done) and FINALLY string it up with the Gamut mediums gut strings I bought from Uncle Toad back in April. All good things take time…and this bass is determined to be a good thing. I think this bass will be making a trip to Nashville in the fall. I would love for some of those AS bass fans in the south to give it a look and pluck…paging Superman or Dennis Crouch…please.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Olivia desperately wants a luminous green bass and I'm determined to deliver!

Here's a technique I'm trying.

- Seal the wood with ordinary dewaxed shellac
- Rub the whole bass with lemon yellow windsor & newton oilpaint, on a rag, evenly but thinly. This makes the bass look like a canary, but the grain shows through.
- hard shellac thinned 60-40 meths and tinted with green "prooftint" spirit based woodstain, brushed on in several coats

It's still a work in progress but as you can see, the client is already happy. I have found the lemon-yellow oilpaint under the shellac reflects the light marvellously through the clear finish, in a way that just varnish over wood doesn't. Without that "ground" coat, the bass would look like it was made of treated pine ...

Challenges, as usual, are brush marks and runs. I don't really enjoy varnishing.

 

[bob babcock]

I'm new to both the forum and also repairing basses. After repairing a partially carved Czechslovakian bass with a number of cracks in the top and sides (the back is laminated) and then using hock dewaxed shellac to touch up the finish, I decided I needed a second bass that would be a bit less fragile. I got a 1956 Kay M-1b which had the ribs on one side kicked or beaten in and have replaced these with maple stents and patches made of 1/8 th inch laminate birch covered by tiger maple. My objective in finishing it would be to get the patched areas to blend with the rest of the bass and to restore the shine of the original finish in places where it has superficial scratches.
I have no idea what type of finish Kay used on these instruments. The sound of the bass is great and I'm hoping to find a method of sealing it that will keep it that way and be practical to apply given my very limited skills. Using the shellac, with some dye, on my older bass was a great approach because I was able to polish thin coats over the repair until it blended well and it was an enjoyable and shop friendly process (which as a rank amateur primarily interested in the sound of the instrument and a passable appearance, I really appreciated). Can anyone guide me about whether a similar approach would be appropriate for the Kay? Alternatively, is there an environmentally friendly varnish that would be practical for a novice to apply that would be a better match for what was used by the manufacturer? Thanks.

Bob