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Double Bass varnish question

W

wayne holmes

Inactive
Nov 12, 2008
206
0
Milan, TN
www.holmesbassviol.com
Disclosures
Proprietor, Holmes Bass Viol Shop
#1
Hi All, I just put on a coat of varnish on a new white bass.
I suspect that someone made a mistake and sent me spirit varnish instead of oil varnish. The label said oil varnish, but I have never had oil varnish to completely dry in just a few hours. I have finished many instruments with oil varnish and it always takes a few days to dry. So, now what do I do, I don't like to finish anything with spirit varnish(please don't ask me why, or try to persuade me to put the second and final coat using spirit varnish) Should I start all over or what-some expert advice would be appreciated. :help:

With lots of bass Love,

Wayne
 
#3
The majority of today's oil varnishes have siccatives added, in order to shorten the drying time. As you build the desired coats the drying time increases. I use the JOHA oil varnishes in violins for some years and i know it first hand.
Mike
 
#4
Thanks Chet, that's good to know. Maybe this is the case with mine. Do you know if the fact that it is a white bass would have anything to do with it drying in a few hours.
I talked to the supplier and was told that they have put the wrong varnish in the can before, but they "try not to make that mistake, but sometimes it happens." In other words, they have put spirit varnish in a can then labeled it oil varnish.

After installing the purfling, I applied a coat of posstassium dichromate to serve as a base. I usually apply the stain within a few hours, but this time, I applied it the next day. I have used the same varnish (not out of the same can)on several instruments and this has never happened before. I used the same amount of oil of rosemary. I did nothing different from before. This coat also looks much duller than any varnish that I have ever used, except for the very first and only bass that I ever varnished with spirit. I am still leaning toward it being spirit in a can that is labeled oil.

So, my question is(since I believe that it is spirit) what do I do now?- do I remove everything and start over, do I try oil over spirit. Going with spirit is not an option since this is my shop bass and I use nothing but oil varnish. You can bet that I will do a test on the varnish from now on before I use it. Maybe my supplier has changed to a faster drying oil varnish that you speak of Chet. Whatever, I still need to get some more info from some of you, who might be able to help.

Again, thanks Chet.
 
#6
Spirit and oil varnish do not smell the same-- and, though I have never tried it, I expect that an oil varnish would accept a dollop of linseed oil and mix with it easily, whereas the spirit varnish would not.

Surely there would at least be some miscibility issues with something...perhaps linseed would not be the right test. Maybe someone else can speak with more authority.

I can tell by the smell, but not, I'm afraid, at this distance. :-)
 
#12
i guess ... depends on how thick you put it on I suppose. you might have to scrape or use steel wool. its a messy job either way. Is it tinted? you probably wont get rid of ALL of it but i don't think that will matter all that much. Its not much different to putting on a shellac sealer/ground coat before an oil finish.
 
#13
Thanks Matthew for all your help-you sound like you have done a lot of finish work. Care to tell us the steps you use and the kind of varnish you use?

I have been getting my varnish from International Violin-they have been a great help to me many many times. I am always looking for better results when finishing an instrument. I am pretty much satisfied with the oil varnish that I use except the end result is a little too shinny.

I don't know about others, but finish work has been the most challenging and ambivalent part of my luthiery experience. Being an OF, I could never live long enough to try all the different methods that I have read about in every book on the subject, notes from workshops, DVDs. I am 100% sure, however, that I prefer oil varnish, but would prefer one that ends up in a pleasant satin finish, rather than a semi-gloss as my current varnish does.

Maybe you and others could share a brief outline of your method and the varnish that you use. You have removed the old varnish, take it from there... If I am getting too personal, it's because this is my first post and don't know any better. I would be willing to bet that I am not the only reader who would love to hear a good simple method that really works. Pictures would be nice.

with lots of bass love, Wayne
 
#14
Wayne, I'm not an expert by any means. I have used spirit, polyurethane, danish oil, an oil/turps/poly blend and I have french polished a bass. IMO nothing beats the look of french polish but its a lot of work.

Easiest way to finish I have found so far is to use a danish oil, or other wirping oils, or thin your poly varnish with linseed and turps, and wipe on with an old tee shirt. Leave 10 mins, wipe off to even it out, allow to dry. repeat.

You build up the finish gradually and it gets glossier the more you put on, so you stop when you're happy. I like this method because you don't get runs ... you don't get dust nibs ... and you don't have to clean your brushes!! I hate cleaning brushes.

There are plenty of threads here with better and more detailed info than i can give you, use the search button and search "varnish matters" to start then keep going ...

This bass was finished this way, the danish oil tinted slightly with artists oils, and "antiqued" in the FF tabs and near the corners and edges:

1384931691_591d6e1986.jpg
 
#15
wow! the picture says it all --the bass is beautiful and that is the cleanest bridge I have ever seen

I know that I speak for many when I say thanks. Yes! French polish- just tried it the other day on my 7/8 Italian--picked out a spot- very nice result - I'll do the whole bass one of these days.
 
#16
Wayne, if you have inadvertently put on a coat of spirit varnish, just leave it be as your sealer coat. Abrade it lightly with 400 grit, and pile on the oil varnish. Unless your spirit was highly waxed, you won't have any problems with adhesion, especially as most of it has soaked into the wood. Many people who varnish with oil use spirit, in the form of un-waxed shellac, as a sealer coat. That's because it dries so fast that it can't soak deeply into the wood. As far as oil varnish goes, the Hammerl product is the only commercial one worth using on a fine instrument, IMHO. You can buy it from International or Metropolitan. You can add their color concentrates which are good and also transparent.
 
#17
Thanks Arnold, I feel that I actually know something about varnish, now, after posting this thread. I can't find the word Hammerl in either the Int or Met catalog. What I have been getting is the first one that appears on page 50 of Int. I get 1011 clear oil varnish and 1015 extracts. I mix 90 % clear oil varnish, 5% extract and 5% oil of Rosemary. Is this the Hammerl, and is this a good mix?? I begin with eggwhite, then potassium dichromate, then start applying the oil varnish mix from 1 to 7 coats depending on the instrument. I do a light sanding (2400) between each coat Does this sound like a good plan? Should I put a top coat of clear varnish after the colored varnish?. How can I keep it from being so shinny?

Surely, there are more who know something about varnish other than Matthew and Arnold- so share away.
 
#18
Yes, I believe that's the Hammerl, though they don't advertise it as such. I usually thin the varnish some to get it to a nice brushing consistency. I don't add oil of Rosemary, just a bit of Linseed and fresh mineral spirits. But the Rosemary smells good. As far as removing gloss, that's something you'll need to do in the rubout. And yes, you need a couple coats of clear on top so you don't rub into the color, and for wear.

Please don't take my varnishing advice as gospel. There's an old saying amongst violinmakers: "It takes ten years to learn how to make a good violin, and the rest of your life to figure out how to varnish it".
 

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