Venting

[jazzbass_5]

So, one of the Bands I play in played a benifit last weekend. We've been together for almost 2 years and we're pretty tight. I sing some backup vocals and harmony and the band layout on stage is me front and center lead vocals and guitars on the right of me and left of me.
Rhythm guitar is on the same side as me (100 watt 2x12 Mesa combo) , lead guitar on the right of me by himself (50 watt 1970s Marshall JCM 900 4x12 cab w/greenbacks)
The show was run by the host band and the PA was vocals only. Amps were not mic'd.
Show went great and we had many compliments both word of mouth, messages and texts to me the next day. I played with the host band years ago and had issues with 1 of the guitar players saying I was always too loud, same setup always just vocals mic'd. We ended up moving him to the other side of the stage and the issue went away. The guitar player I speak of sent me a text and told me we sounded great and said "you weren't too loud" lol. The guy on the board said we had a great, balanced mix amongst the many other compliments.
So, flash forward to Thursday of that week and we have band practice. The first order of the night was a tongue lashing about how I was too loud. From the guitar player who was on my side (mind you, the group running sound did a sound chech on us during the first couple of songs and asked me to turn down, which I did, got the thumbs up and never touched the volume again that night)
I suggested a few options to correct this one of them being moving the guitar player to the other side of the stage, That idea was quickly squashed. Then I recommended that we always run with our amps mic'd/DI'd (I own the PA for our band and have no issues setting up this way) that got a big "nope" also.
So, here's the thing.. And yes, there's a thing.
I believe when you're running Stage Sound volume on your amps for a show with only your vocals mic'd that no matter what, if you're standing in front of the bass amp is going to be to loud since your playing to the entire building (this was a large hall) turning down because the rhythm guitar players standing 5 feet away from my amp is not conducive to a good sound mix out front.
By the way, I was running a SVP-PRO in front of a Quilter BB800 into a 4x10 cab.
Thoughts?

 

[RustyAxe]

We play small rooms (less than 200 usually), and only vocals in the PA, everything else is amped separately. I usually stand right in front of my amp, stage left, rear. Of course my bass sounds loud ... I'm standing in front of the amp. More than once the lead guitar on the opposite side of the stage has asked me to turn it up, or to angle my amp slightly his way. Never been asked to turn down. I get your frustration ... you've offered good alternatives, and the guitarist is insisting it's gonna be his way or the highway. Honestly, I'd probably just ignore their complaints, these things usually pass. You might try to record at a gig, but the mix wouldn't be what the room hears unless you had a mic out from the stage (to pick everything up).

 

[s0c9]

As a FOH guy, I often find the bass is too loud on stage because many stand right next to their amp and really don’t hear how it carries the venue. They hear the stage/room reflections.
OTOT..some folks are more sensitive to certain LF frequencies and maybe guitar player is one? I don’t know?
No easy solution except to turn down while playing and see what works for the band.
It IS a team effort...

Basically.. if your band mates say you are too loud, you are too loud, no matter what you may believe or have been told. If it’s ONLY the guitar player saying so.. then Meh!!! Ignore.

 

[jazzbass_5]

We play small rooms (less than 200 usually), and only vocals in the PA, everything else is amped separately. I usually stand right in front of my amp, stage left, rear. Of course my bass sounds loud ... I'm standing in front of the amp. More than once the lead guitar on the opposite side of the stage has asked me to turn it up, or to angle my amp slightly his way. Never been asked to turn down. I get your frustration ... you've offered good alternatives, and the guitarist is insisting it's gonna be his way or the highway. Honestly, I'd probably just ignore their complaints, these things usually pass. You might try to record at a gig, but the mix wouldn't be what the room hears unless you had a mic out from the stage (to pick everything up).

Unfortunately I'm the new guy and he is the one who created the band with the lead guitar player, so it's always going to be my opinion or I'd have to hit the highway. I like these guys but I as a bassist always have opportunities and options, I do play for another band have had another offer recently and do my fill of hired gun shows.

 

[the zombywoof]

Unfortunately I'm the new guy and he is the one who created the band with the lead guitar player, so it's always going to be my opinion or I'd have to hit the highway. I like these guys but I as a bassist always have opportunities and options, I do play for another band have had another offer recently and do my fill of hired gun shows.

show the band your texts

 

[ahc]

Get a "producer knob/switch".

 

[EastCoastThump]

I suggested a few options to correct this one of them being moving the guitar player to the other side of the stage, That idea was quickly squashed. Then I recommended that we always run with our amps mic'd/DI'd (I own the PA for our band and have no issues setting up this way) that got a big "nope" also.
So, here's the thing.. And yes, there's a thing....Thoughts?

• Hmm. So, running lower stage volume isn't the easy win it should be, and the complaining guitarist won't move? In problem-solving mode: What if you move to stage right, and give the JCM-equipped guitarist the center-stage spot? (If needed, his Marshall could be toed in toward him and your 410 positioned slightly toward stage-right.)

• The other problem here that would need addressing is the group's way of identifying and addressing perceived sound/mix problems. Not a real fan of 1) waiting until after the gig to raise a concern with something that might be a major concern in how the band sounds, 2) assuming one's perceptions of stage sound are gospel truth, and therefore 3) starting from an emotional, self-indulgent tantrum after the gig's over.

Dear bandmate(s): Think you're hearing a big problem? Bring it up, describe the perceived symptom as best you can, and quickly/directly seek disconfirming as well as confirming evidence to help diagnose. Then either fix it, stand down while someone else fixes it, or stand down while troubleshooting determines there's no fire here. In any event, once potential problem X has been diagnosed and addressed, move on.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Sorry for the unpopular opinion, but two bands have told you that you are too loud. Maybe you are. I wasn't there, so I can't say.

The issue is not volume on stage, but in the audience.

 

[jazzbass_5]

show the band your texts

I did with the lead guitarist/vocalist was to busy to reply. He was hunting....

 

[jazzbass_5]

Sorry for the unpopular opinion, but two bands have told you that you are too loud. Maybe you are. I wasn't there, so I can't say.

The issue is not volume on stage, but in the audience.

The first band I mentioned in there was 7 years ago, we solved that issue when he moved from being right in front of my bass Amp to the other side of the stage with the other guitarist, was never an issue after that.
Not an unpopular thought, I also run sound and own a substantial PA. I understand that if you don't mic/DI the instruments that stage volume in a larger hall will inevitably be louder.
We've played many small venues and it wasn't an issue then.

 

[EastCoastThump]

BTW, if the band is in a phase of arguing about on-stage volume while essentially self-mixing via stage rigs, try consistently taking SPL readings from the same distance from each stage amp. Ditto, consistently taking SPL readings 10' from the front of center stage, stage-L, and stage R.

Takes one minute during line checks, and establishes the discussion's baselines on something other than shifting impressions.

• Before: "You are way too loud!" vs. "No way!, I can barely hear myself over your half-stack"

• After: "You're way too loud!" vs. "Hmm. 98 dB @ 10 ft on-axis—same as our target live mix for this room last time."

 

[jazzbass_5]

• Hmm. So, running lower stage volume isn't the easy win it should be, and the complaining guitarist won't move? In problem-solving mode: What if you move to stage right, and give the JCM-equipped guitarist the center-stage spot? (If needed, his Marshall could be toed in toward him and your 410 positioned slightly toward stage-right.
• Lead guitarist likes having his side to himself, not an option unfortunately.

• The other problem here that would need addressing is the group's way of identifying and addressing perceived sound/mix problems. Not a real fan of 1) waiting until after the gig to raise a concern with something that might be a major concern in how the band sounds, 2) assuming one's perceptions of stage sound are gospel truth, and therefore 3) starting from an emotional, self-indulgent tantrum after the gig's over.

The thing is is there was no problem with our sound, out front the band was perfectly mixed and sounded fantastic.
secondly, there was no way to address it onstage that night as it was a benefit we only had one set therefore we didn't have any time offstage to talk about it.
And unfortunately normally if I'm too loud this particular individual will tell me he didn't say a thing that night. The other guitar player on the other hand is extremely passive-aggressive and when I showed up at practice and he was already there I knew something was up. And I was told "they talked about it" prior to my arriving.

 

[jazzbass_5]

BTW, if the band is in a phase of arguing about on-stage volume while essentially self-mixing via stage rigs, try consistently taking SPL readings from the same distance from each stage amp. Ditto, consistently taking SPL readings 10' from the front of center stage, stage-L, and stage R.

Takes one minute during line checks, and establishes the discussion's baselines on something other than shifting impressions.

• Before: "You are way too loud!" vs. "No way!, I can barely hear myself over your half-stack"

• After: "You're way too loud!" vs. "Hmm. 98 dB @ 10 ft on-axis—same as our target live mix for this room last time."

Again, this is a benefit we played, 1 of 5 bands, 15 minute set up, one set no breaks and we were not running sound. I don't normally have a problem with this individual.

 

[EastCoastThump]

Lead guitarist likes having his side to himself, not an option unfortunately.

There are plenty of options. Perhaps what you want is a friction-free option (even though there's enough friction in the current arrangement to produce heat, if not actual sparks...).

Given that you're inclined to believe (with some good evidence) that the drums and three stage-rigs were well balanced in FOH, the problem you're trying to solve isn't "fixing" the mix but fixing your rhythm guitarist's approach to perceiving/understanding/discussing stage-rig volume. In your shoes, that's what I'd go at, but YMMV, and it's your gig.

 

[s0c9]

There are plenty of options. Perhaps what you want is a friction-free option (even though there's enough friction in the current arrangement to produce heat, if not actual sparks...).

Given that you're inclined to believe (with some good evidence) that the drums and three stage-rigs were well balanced in FOH, the problem you're trying to solve isn't "fixing" the mix but fixing your rhythm guitarist's approach to perceiving/understanding/discussing stage-rig volume. In your shoes, that's what I'd go at, but YMMV, and it's your gig.

I believe that if one cannot tell other bandmates they are "too loud" without attribution/attrition in response, that perhaps one needs other band mates? Maybe it's a respect thing, idk.
We have 2 guitarists.. we've been together for 6.5 yrs. I have no problem with telling either (during sound check) that they are too loud. They usually ask me to turn up.. fine with me. I'm IEM so it's only for their benefit!
OP's MMV!

 

[Engle]

It’s pretty hard to judge FOH volume of the bass when you’re on stage.
Last week our guitarist said “I’m hearing a lot of bass!”.
I had just walked out front with my wireless to check the mix and it was just right. Sometimes it’s the shape/structure of the stage area.

 

[interp]

It’s pretty hard to judge FOH volume of the bass when you’re on stage.
Last week our guitarist said “I’m hearing a lot of bass!”.
I had just walked out front with my wireless to check the mix and it was just right. Sometimes it’s the shape/structure of the stage area.

There are a certain number of guitarists (and other musicians) whose definition of excessively loud bass is “I can hear it.” They are pretty easy to identify and should be humored and then ignored.

 

[TemplesOfSyrinx]

I will never understand why with the advancements in mobile PA gear, a band would choose NOT to run everything through the FOH. Stage volume is decreased and overall mix for the venue and the patrons is better.

 

[jazzbass_5]

I will never understand why with the advancements in mobile PA gear, a band would choose NOT to run everything through the FOH. Stage volume is decreased and overall mix for the venue and the patrons is better.

I agree, and I like to do so when using my PA in larger venues, we don't in small places though.
The host band has been together and playing for 24 years together and have always run this way (I was with them for a good 2 years at 1 point) .

 

[Nevada Pete]

The traditional way to deal with this issue is to have a trusted fan, hang around or even better, your management / tech personnel (if you have them) just provide feedback to the band regarding your stage blend. Of course, everybody has to be on board with this concept for it to work.

There's another way that's pretty fool proof, though. You can get a highly accurate reproduction of what your band sounds like to the audience using a technique called binaural recording. This technique uses a stereo microphone setup embedded in a jig that reproduces the acoustics of the human head (and actually looks sort of like a human head). When you listen to a binaural recording through headphones, it is as close as you can get to actually being able to stand out in the audience when your band is playing. The difference is, of course, the whole band can review the recordings, including during breaks. Binaural recordings are usually startlingly realistic sounding, and can be listened to through loudspeakers, as well.

Such a recording will give all band members an accurate sample of how the various instruments are blended with each other from the perspective of the audience. If you all have the same vision of what you want your band to sound like, or, if there is a leader who can make the final decision, your problem is solved. Given a little time, through trial and error you can dial in your stage volume to perfection because you know what everything sounds like out in the crowd. That is, the crowd you are, after all, attempting to entertain. You may want to make your test recordings from the center of the dance floor in front of the stage, of from the center of the room your playing in for starters. Once you get the hang of dialing in your stage volume with the help of this kind of feedback, you will easily be able to compensate for the various rooms you play in on the fly. You won't need the recordings anymore.

Here's a Wikipedia article on binaural recording. There are many other articles online that are less detailed that may be easier to digest.

Binaural recording - Wikipedia

There appears to now be binaural recording microphone setups that are not excessively expensive. Nothing says you can't make something yourself.

Actually, for this purpose, any of the good hand held stereo digital audio recorders with twin microphones for stereo recording will do a credible job of recording your band live so you can get your stage volume dialed in to perfection. The point is, there really shouldn't be anything to argue about when you have a decent recording of what your band sounds like to the audience. If you can't get your stage volume together using feedback from trusted fans, hang around's, management, tech crew-roadies or live recordings of your band, you may wish to consider your options. Life is short. Make it sweet. Good luck.

By the way, did you say the rhythum guitar player says your too loud?