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Venue Size

smogg

smogg

Mar 27, 2007
5,365
6,189
NPR, Florida
Disclosures
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell
#1
I'm posting this in live sound as IMO venue size directly determines PA needs. We often use the phrases small room; large room, etc.

Q:What is your definition of "room size" in numbers?
I'll start;
Small room up to 100 people in the audience. Minimal PA support needed ie: vocals plus maybe the kick
Medium size venue up to 250 people. Some PA support needed
Large room up to 500. Full PA support needed

Any over 500 I would consider breaking into concert numbers ie: 1000 in the audience equals small concert, 3000 medium sized concert & 5000+ being large concert, All needing pro level sound support.

How do you see the numbers TB?
 
#2
I'd mostly agree with that, but from a PA-requirements perspective a lot has to do with the type of music being performed in the venue. Rock vs metal vs bluegrass could have some seriously different PA/production needs, and that's keeping it at a very high level.
 
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#3
Barisaxman said:
I'd mostly agree with that, but from a PA-requirements perspective a lot has to do with the type of music being performed in the venue. Rock vs metal vs bluegrass could have some seriously different PA/production needs, and that's keeping it at a very high level.
Click to expand...

I get your point but have to ask, How loud do really need to be playing a room that's full with only 100 peeps? IMO PA needs should be some what constant whether it's rock, metal or country and run proportionate to room size. I mean unless you are intentionally trying to make people ears bleed and chase them out of the pub.
IME that is where a lot of bands fail. They dial up like it's a show for 1200 when there is really only 50 people in the room at any given time through out the evening.
 
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#4
smogg said:
I get your point but have to ask, How loud do really need to be playing a room that's full with only 100 peeps? IMO PA needs should be some what constant whether it's rock, metal or country and run proportionate to room size. I mean unless you are intentionally trying to make people ears bleed and chase them out of the pub.
IME that is where a lot of bands fail. They dial up like it's a show for 1200 when there is really only 50 people in the room at any given time through out the evening.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but I'm in the camp that even in a 100 person room i'm using subs and putting a mic/line on everything. Not for volume, but for coverage and tonality. Acoustic drums are fine for some types of music, for others they just don't do it for me. I can easily cover a room of that size with my bass rig, and occasionally I will. Guitar amps by nature are beamy and sound vastly different off-axis from the speaker. The only way to cover a room is with sheer volume, I can put them in the PA much quieter and hit more seats with the same sound.

It's easy to overdo it, and I've been in that boat, but again it's really about what you want the audience experience to be as to how much PA. Used correctly having more than enough will allow for a much better experience than "not enough" or "almost enough".
 
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#8
Your logic is valid. I find keeping the guitars stage volume in check can be challenging in small venues.


Barisaxman said:
Agreed, but I'm in the camp that even in a 100 person room i'm using subs and putting a mic/line on everything. Not for volume, but for coverage and tonality. Acoustic drums are fine for some types of music, for others they just don't do it for me. I can easily cover a room of that size with my bass rig, and occasionally I will. Guitar amps by nature are beamy and sound vastly different off-axis from the speaker. The only way to cover a room is with sheer volume, I can put them in the PA much quieter and hit more seats with the same sound.

It's easy to overdo it, and I've been in that boat, but again it's really about what you want the audience experience to be as to how much PA. Used correctly having more than enough will allow for a much better experience than "not enough" or "almost enough".
Click to expand...
 
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#10
Hmmm. Good question. Largest crowd we have played to was just under 200 people, outdoor venue (Deck at a Marina). We had vocals only in the PA. Honestly, it really wasn't that much of a stretch though. There is typically a dance floor set up in front of the stage, and then folks seating on the outsides. so we aren't blowing out dinner conversation, but folks can dance to us...
 
#12
When we run our PA - it's for small to medium gigs (private parties to bars/clubs) up to about 250-300 people - we bring [each side] 15" subs, with dual 15" tops + horn, with DSP splitting frequencies between tops and subs.

The one venue where we have 500+ (had around 1000 about 6 weeks ago opening for a natl act) we use the house system.
I KNOW it has SIX dual-18" subs under the stage, around SIX 15" tops and 6 horns on each side that are ceiling mounted.
No clue as to total wattage, but they do play dance/hip-hop/EDM between sets, so I guess they need the oomph!
 
#13
Barisaxman said:
Agreed, but I'm in the camp that even in a 100 person room i'm using subs and putting a mic/line on everything. Not for volume, but for coverage and tonality.
Click to expand...

I had a band leader who I wish understood that simple concept. He always had subs in the trailer, but would try to get out of using them at every chance he could get. He upgraded to some of the modern JBL active subs, which sound great and are a breeze to move, and it's still pulling teeth to get him to use them in rooms that frankly should have subs. We used to surprisingly still get some great mixes with just tops, which I owe to having good ears and quality backline, but it still wasn't ideal in a lot of rooms. He always wanted to keep stage volume low - sometimes irrationally low - and I tried explaining that running a full three- or four-way system is going to reduce stage volume, because it means I don't have to slam bass to the back of the room with my rig on stage.
 
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#14
Well i wonder if there is anyone around in this thread to read this but I wonder what you opinions are. We play rock music with my band, our sound is (ought to be) something like Rival Sons or LEd Zeppelin. We mostly play pubs that have a room like 10m x 10m if not smaller, not much more than 50 people fit in. As we talked bout this one of these days with my band, I suggested we should minimize logistics overhead and just carry a single top speaker for the vocals, have drums acousticly and guitar and bass from their own amps. One of our band members argues that this is not sufficient for rock music, which I just dont believe. I want to make sure we try this at least once and then see how it goes, but I am still interested to hear those of you who have tried similar minimalist PA setup. (The purpose of this would be to be flexible to play small gigs in places where there is no house PA - without the cost and fuss of borrowing or renting a proper PA (and transporting it, setting it up, adjusting it, pulling it down after the concert, transporting again...))
 
#15
A room that size is not a place I would take a band in that genre. Period...

In my band we put the bass and kick in th PA all the time as we like the more integrated, produced sound. We do quite a lot of lower volume gigs, so for me it isn't about volume, it's about the mix and presentation.

One thing I do is apply light compression to a sub mix that carries keys, bass, electric guitar and the kick. Sometimes kick, snare and OHD. That achieves a certain level of polish.
 
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#16
kakuk_marci said:
Well i wonder if there is anyone around in this thread to read this but I wonder what you opinions are. We play rock music with my band, our sound is (ought to be) something like Rival Sons or LEd Zeppelin. We mostly play pubs that have a room like 10m x 10m if not smaller, not much more than 50 people fit in. As we talked bout this one of these days with my band, I suggested we should minimize logistics overhead and just carry a single top speaker for the vocals, have drums acousticly and guitar and bass from their own amps. One of our band members argues that this is not sufficient for rock music, which I just dont believe. I want to make sure we try this at least once and then see how it goes, but I am still interested to hear those of you who have tried similar minimalist PA setup. (The purpose of this would be to be flexible to play small gigs in places where there is no house PA - without the cost and fuss of borrowing or renting a proper PA (and transporting it, setting it up, adjusting it, pulling it down after the concert, transporting again...))
Click to expand...
A well set up kick drum can put a well good enough thump into that room. A lot of drummers have their kick stuffed full of pillows to make it easier to mic though. Stick to your guns.
 
#18
I think this is really two questions. I agree with your room sizes. What sized PA is needed for different rooms it a different question.

We use the same PA, with just vocals and acoustic guitar, for all small, medium, and outdoor gigs. For larger rooms we have always had "real" PA support :D

For medium venues, depending on the layout, I might put the lead guitar through the PA to spread the sound out a bit. i.e. Typical guitar player, the amp beams like crazy. I call it the "kill zone".
 
#19
smogg said:
IME that is where a lot of bands fail. They dial up like it's a show for 1200 when there is really only 50 people in the room at any given time through out the evening.
Click to expand...

Same goes for backline. I used to play with a lead guitarist who rolled a Mesa Boogie head and 412 cab to 120 capacity bar gigs. Drove me nuts and made it almost impossible to control stage volume or get a decent mix in the house. We'd put him through the P.A. but usually just wind up taking him completely out since his rig was carrying the room and then some. Not to mention a serious PITA to haul around. Finally after about 3 years of harping we got him to scale back to a 112 combo but it was a long, hard fight against backline overkill with that guy.

Also +1 to running subs even in small venues and putting kick drum and bass through them always. I've heard bands who do this and bands who don't and the bands who do it just sound better and coincidentally or not, seem to have bigger crowds having a better time.
 
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