Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop: Help Understanding how to play without thinking.

[sikamikanico]

I didn't study Wooten, but I guess one way to think about theory is it's a map. Maps tell us where what is, and can be great to orient ourselves...but to drive well, we shouldn't be looking at the map, but the road. Yes, you may miss a few turns, but that's part of the journey. Maps are not terrain, and theory isn't music.

Maybe the analogy isn't great in the era of GPS navigation

 

[bherman]

Lots of good advice here, I'd sum it up for me this way: practice your ass off learning scales, arpeggios, progressions, etc etc until you can do them all without thinking. It frees you up for the times when you are in the groove and can just play without having to think about it.

Other big lesson I learned - I'm definitely paraphrasing here, but I read somewhere that when asked how he managed to learn songs so well without reading charts during a gig, Lee Sklar said something like, "I use the charts to learn the song, after I play it 100 times or so I really know it". In my experience, real pros practice way more than we mere mortals ever do. Pablo Casals once said that he practiced 4-5 hrs/day because "he thought he was making progress".

 

[konfyouzd]

I didn't study Wooten, but I guess one way to think about theory is it's a map. Maps tell us where what is, and can be great to orient ourselves...but to drive well, we shouldn't be looking at the map, but the road. Yes, you may miss a few turns, but that's part of the journey. Maps are not terrain, and theory isn't music.

Maybe the analogy isn't great in the era of GPS navigation

I like this one.

This is the type of analogy I make at work only to have people look at me like I didn't just say something that perfectly describes the scenario at hand. The only problem with it is that it gives no definite answers--which isn't a real problem in my eyes. *shrug*

 

[Jehos]

what is 9x13 ???

Technically correct answer: 117

Victor Wooten answer: a brownie pan. I love brownies. They're warm and gooey, with chocolate chunks in them. My mom used to make the best brownies. Regi always wanted to lick the bowl, but I loved to wait for them to be hot out of the oven. So delicious with milk. Every time I eat brownies i think about how much I love my mom. I wish everybody had a mom as great as mine. Now tell me about your mom. (hands off the solo to the keys).

 

[JimmyM]

It took me years to get to that point, and I'm still not always there after over 40 years. Playing without thinking is a goal that takes a hell of a lot of learning and thinking to get to that point.

 

[AFRO]

Technically correct answer: 117

<Snippy>

Good thing this is not the "TalkMath" forum

 

[ErikP.Bass]

Lots of great input here. I really enjoyed the Groove Workshop DVDs and the Music Lesson, the audio book is very well done.

Also, this thread is worth reading. I highly recommend the Talent Code and looking into becoming a Bassologist.

The Talent Code, and concepts related to it

 

[Wasnex]

An analogy I like is this:

As you are talking (or typing in this case) you are unconsciously aware of words, grammar, syntax, etc.

But you are not thinking about each and every word and where it goes.... you just have an idea to express and it just comes out.

Music is like that.

This is it!

Most of use are not as fluent on our instruments as we are at speaking. So I think writing is a better analogy in some ways. Sometimes when you start writing, you just get your ideas out without thinking. Later you focus more on the words, grammar, syntax, etc. So you have different thought processes that you move in and out of.

But when you are writing you usually think freely at first and then polish later. With improvising on an instrument, the order is reversed. You consider all the technical aspects and polish what you are doing first (via study and practice), and then when you perform, you shift your thought process and just allow the music to emerge without thinking too much. If you think too much it will actually slow you down and inhibit what you are doing.

Obviously it's not as easy as it sounds. One key skill is you must have a well developed ear, so your fingers can accurately play what you hear in your head. When I play by ear I go almost entirely off the sounds I hear, and anticipation of what sounds come next.

When I am improvising I move in and out of playing by ear and thinking about the music from a theoretical standpoint. But the theory I am thinking about while I am playing is not really something we can talk about.

In studying over the long term, your brain develops all sorts of archetypes and mental short cuts that allow you recognize a chord symbol on the page and play appropriate notes in the context of the key center and where you are in the chord progression. The majority of what you do is sub-conscious and essentially automatic. But you will have a few conscious thoughts related to music theory cross your mind while you're playing.

When studying and practicing, you slow things down so you can fully conceptualize the music theory you are using. But as you increase the tempo, it quickly becomes too much information for your mind to process. This is why the mental archetypes and shortcuts become necessary. So as you become more proficient, the playing process becomes increasingly automated and subconscious. But you can always slow down and think about it in order to come up with new ideas.

 

[mambo4]

It took me years to get to that point, and I'm still not always there after over 40 years. Playing without thinking is a goal that takes a hell of a lot of learning and thinking to get to that point.

If I am honest with myself, that "blissful state" is something I have achieved only occasionally during performance.
In every case, for me, it came only after executing the same material regularly for the better part of a year.

I will say, that as I became more aware of what it actually is like to reach that state,
I tended to double down on my own practice of the material.

 

[SteveCS]

.... Classical education, ... it's far from "express yourself".
...

This is simply not true. IME, folks who think this to be true either do not have a classical education or did not get very far with it.

 

[DanAleks]

There's no secret.

I love baseball. Most of my analogies go back to baseball.

I HATED the first few weeks of baseball practice. Why? Fundamentals. My father was my coach.... and he was no joke. He would hit ground ball after ground ball at me at a zillion miles per hour. "BEND YOUR KNEES! GET IN FRONT OF IT! LEAD THE BALL!!!"
Why do you practice every tiny little detail of your swing when hitting?

Now I get it. You pound the fundamentals into your head, and muscles, so that when the ball is hit, you don't HAVE to think. You FEEL. You almost SMELL where the ball is going. Your body just goes where the ball is. And you get in front of it. And when you stop it, you take one hop and you GUN it to the cutoff guy without even thinking.

The same goes for music. Do the math during practice. Learn theory and chord structure. Practice scales. Practice arpeggios.

But when the drummer clicks four times, STOP DOING MATH! The math is already in your head. Just feel the groove. Just go where the rest of the band takes you.
Make no mistake. Even if he has no formal training, he knows theory. He has practiced, and practiced, and practiced. So much so, his ears know what sounds good in a given situation.

Short version: Work the fundamentals. Then let go of your head and feel the groove in the band.

Ladies and Gentlemen... we have a winner!

Another short version: "You can't THINK and play, you have to KNOW and play"
(Thank you for that wisdom, Mr. Tony King!)

 

[TheDirtyLowDown]

Here's an anecdote from way out in left field to follow on to some good suggestions and baseball analogies... I learned to play Scruggs style banjo as a kid, using his book and some Flatt and Scruggs records. In the book some basic forward/backward roll patterns are written out in notation and tablature, and (as I remember) each would have a 'repeat' sign with a number like 500 or 1000 over it. I remember seeing that as a kid and wondering if I could ever repeat it that many times. My parents, downstairs, were probably dreading to hear if I would.

If you love to play, you'll play it until you get fluent. Scruggs style banjo can go really fast, and if you're thinking too much about doing it you're falling behind. I think the same principle is true for bass, or any other instrument.

 

[Wasnex]

This is simply not true. IME, folks who think this to be true either do not have a classical education or did not get very far with it.

In my experience classical players tend to have superior control over matters such as dynamics, tone, articulation and phrasing, and can draw on their skills very expressively. Improvisation is not just about the notes you play, it is also about how you play the notes.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

So my Bass teacher is having me go through Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop DVD. I'm about half way through, and Victor talks a lot about playing what you feel. Not thinking about what you want to play, or playing the correct notes, or finding the key of the song. Just play what you feel. I'm having trouble understanding this though. I can feel a type of sound I want to play, but my issue is that...Where is that sound. I can't just randomly start hitting notes in hopes that what I feel comes out. In theory you need some kind of foundation right? Victor even mentions that he isn't a master of music theory, and I'm not a master as well.

I just have trouble wrapping my head around this concept of playing without thinking. I've practiced this a couple
of times where I either play to a backing track, or not play to anything at all. In both situations it either sounds
like garbage (Because I don't know what I'm playing) or I stay to patterns I know. (R, 3rd, 5th) or just minor pentatonics.

It's like there's a secret that everyone else knows but me.

I dunno about this not thinking thing. I've been playing a long time and I'm hear to tell you I think and concentrate constantly making decisions in milliseconds based on what everybody else is doing.

Maybe if you are a solo act, or the featured instrument you can get away with just "finding the groove". But if you are playing with say 8-12 other instruments and vocalists, you'd be well advised to make sure you are listening to what they are doing and making sure you are making the right decisions on your part. Going on auto pilot with other musicians that may or may not remember where planet they are on is a recipe for disaster.

BTW, learning theory will not ruin you as a player because the large part of your job as a bassist is musical reconciliation, and it's really hard to reconcile what you don't understand. True it won't necessarily make you a better instrumentalist, but it will make you better musician and a valued bandmate.

 

[OptimalOptimus]

 

[StatesideRambler]

I Made a chart a few years back

Well done! That's been hanging by my practice space since I first saw it. And I do refer to it. Have you sent it to Vic?

I have, a couple times, used it to screen bandmates. If I hear them say that it doesn't make sense or it doesn't matter, I know I won't enjoy playing with them for long.

 

[Samatza]

It's the same a giving a speech without preparation- you speak in words and phrases that you already know, you don't think, you just do because the idea is already formed in your head.
With music it's the same thing, if you practice and listen then eventually the note pattern and the sound become "attached" in your head. Good practice to sing a phrase and then repeat it on your instrument, eventually you build up your language on the bass and it becomes the same as speaking.

 

[wraub]

I love the concept of "practicing the wrong notes"... very informative, and something I've been sort-of doing for a while.

One other bit of wisdom from Victor - Groove trumps notes.
His point (about thinking) is at least partly "many musicians spend so much time thinking about which notes to play that the groove suffers".
How would you play if you weren't afraid to play a "wrong" note?
What if there were no "wrong" notes - just different choices?
He does an excercise/demonstration where he plays 2 solos over the same changes.
In the first he only plays notes that are "correct" - in the key of the changes. But he plays them without much "feel" - just the right notes. And it sounds pretty good - nothing wrong with it. Nothing "wrong" with it.
The second time he plays "only the wrong notes" - only notes that are not in the key. All "wrong" notes! But he plays with groove and intensity and totally makes it work - and it definitely sounds better than the first solo.

As others have said, practice and learning are the times to "think". When it comes time to play, put thinking aside and feel.

 

[Acoop]

When you walk down the street to think about every time your foot touches the ground? ... When you're eating, do you thinking about how you chew and where the food is in your mouth? ... The answer is no, because you've done those things thousands of times. ... The best music is made in the moment and you can't be in the moment if you're worried about what you're playing. ...

 

[BOOG]

So in short they expect you to know all the theory before you can just "Play" That makes sense, but the perspective I got from the video was "Stop thinking about theory, or notes, just play!" But I need that theory!

Yep, the theory will let understand what you're doing. Once we understand it we have to consciously think about it less and less. At that point, we start to feel the groove and go for a ride. Btw... I'm still working on getting better at this. I've got the theory on lock but applying it is just another leg of the journey. Understanding all of this stuff is the beginning of the journey.