Once we’re done here let’s start a discussion about older toilet paper vs. new.
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Vintage Fenders. Why??
- Thread starter tb-player
- Start date
I have a 68 Jazz that is an exceptionally fine instrument. I bought it in the 90s. When I took it to Mike Lull (RIP) for some repair work he told me that in 68 Fender was doing a lot of experimenting with pickups, and some from that year are good and others not. He felt that the pickups on my bass were some of the best he had heard. I also have a 78 P bass that I’ve owned since it was new. It’s a good player if you like a big, meaty neck and don’t mind the almost 11 lb. weight. It got me through hundreds of gigs, jams, and sessions in fine shape and I don’t think I’ll ever part with it.
I’m happy to own those vintage pieces, but I don’t think I’d pay the kinds of prices for them that vintage instruments command these days. There are lots of very fine new basses that sound and play just as good, imho.
I’m happy to own those vintage pieces, but I don’t think I’d pay the kinds of prices for them that vintage instruments command these days. There are lots of very fine new basses that sound and play just as good, imho.
A friend of mine has a '62 Jazz with "the most amazing feeling neck ever". Sounds real good too!
He's owned it probably 30 years, but it was still pretty 'vintage' when he got it. He never told me why he bought it, and I never asked
Myself, I prefer the aesthetic of the "TV-logo" precisions, so those ones qualify as my own chosen 'vintage'.
Back around the turn of the millennium I had quite a few late-50s and early 60s instruments, but I used to like them even back in the mid-70s (that "teapot-checking" always looked real nice to me...)
He's owned it probably 30 years, but it was still pretty 'vintage' when he got it. He never told me why he bought it, and I never asked
Myself, I prefer the aesthetic of the "TV-logo" precisions, so those ones qualify as my own chosen 'vintage'.
Back around the turn of the millennium I had quite a few late-50s and early 60s instruments, but I used to like them even back in the mid-70s (that "teapot-checking" always looked real nice to me...)
JeezyMcNuggles
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- Feb 23, 2018
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It is 100% true. In general, and in specifics.
The most masterful craftsman has tolerances of an 1/8"
Machines have tolerances of 1/1000"
Now, after the machines have done their job, it's in the hands of the craftsmen to finish the job. But, to start from 1/1000, compared to starting from 1/8 is a gigantic leap forward in every aspect.
Thank you Hartley. You are the man.
Oh, this was in agreement with you, on the guy you quoted. Not really quoting your post.
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I like the feel of the vintage basses. The heft of the necks, rolled edges, small frets, light weights (pre-70s
). Having said that, I've liked the Road Worn series, and I think I would like the Fender American Vintage II or anything that reproduces those things I like.
I have a mid 60's budget Gibson archtop, with a P-90, plays and sounds sweet.
Also a 78 Musicmaster Bass that's ... okay ... but has a truss rod issue and a gap neck pocket (shimmed it), and a pickup just made to be replaced (put in a blue Lace, much better). Bridge is a funky design, hard to intonate. It has its own charm, and didn't cost much back then, but I don't think I'd buy it today ... even at the original price, much less at today's "vintage" prices.
In contrast, the best Strat I've ever played was a beautiful rosewood board '64 that was just, yes, like buttah.
So, some of that old 50's and 60's stuff is pretty awesome, but nowadays fahgeddaboudit. Waaay to pricey. But there is lots of good stuff being made today, some of it pretty cheap. Yay!
Also a 78 Musicmaster Bass that's ... okay ... but has a truss rod issue and a gap neck pocket (shimmed it), and a pickup just made to be replaced (put in a blue Lace, much better). Bridge is a funky design, hard to intonate. It has its own charm, and didn't cost much back then, but I don't think I'd buy it today ... even at the original price, much less at today's "vintage" prices.
In contrast, the best Strat I've ever played was a beautiful rosewood board '64 that was just, yes, like buttah.
So, some of that old 50's and 60's stuff is pretty awesome, but nowadays fahgeddaboudit. Waaay to pricey. But there is lots of good stuff being made today, some of it pretty cheap. Yay!
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The history of rock music was written on Fenders (and Gibsons, and Ricks, and a few others). Jimmy’s Strat. Keith’s Tele. JPJ’s Jazz Bass. James’s P. The idiosyncrasies of those instruments—the imperfections—are the sound of American music. That’s the tradition that calls to me when I make music, and I am inspired by everything about my Fenders—yes, even the logo.
As for the vintage aspect…that’s a little trickier. I just bought a birth year P (1966, if you must know), and I got it to play, not to collect. It’s lived a life, and that’s inspiring to me, too. The feel of it, the smell of it, the knowledge that it’s been making music as long as I’ve been breathing, the fact that some guy treasured it enough to scratch his name in the back of the headstock. Could I tell the difference, in a blind listening test, between this 1966 P and a new “American Original” (or whatever they call it these days)? Maybe, maybe not. Could I tell the difference in the way they feel? I think so.
Can I justify the expense? Why do I have to? If I like an old pretty thing, and I love playing it, what higher power should I feel obligated to make my case to?
I wouldn’t pay the prices people pay for an Alembic or a Fodera, but that’s their thing, and not only does it not mystify me, I don’t give it any thought at all. This whole “be like me or explain why you’re not” thing…sheesh.
As for the vintage aspect…that’s a little trickier. I just bought a birth year P (1966, if you must know), and I got it to play, not to collect. It’s lived a life, and that’s inspiring to me, too. The feel of it, the smell of it, the knowledge that it’s been making music as long as I’ve been breathing, the fact that some guy treasured it enough to scratch his name in the back of the headstock. Could I tell the difference, in a blind listening test, between this 1966 P and a new “American Original” (or whatever they call it these days)? Maybe, maybe not. Could I tell the difference in the way they feel? I think so.
Can I justify the expense? Why do I have to? If I like an old pretty thing, and I love playing it, what higher power should I feel obligated to make my case to?
I wouldn’t pay the prices people pay for an Alembic or a Fodera, but that’s their thing, and not only does it not mystify me, I don’t give it any thought at all. This whole “be like me or explain why you’re not” thing…sheesh.
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frankly, I think the main issue is that the best Fenders you can buy now are not Fenders. They're like you said... Nash, Olinto, Bluesman, etc. So many brands do the thing Fender did miles better than Fender does it now. But... some people just want a Fender. Yes, a modern Fender will probably be an acceptable bass (barring any of the typical "Fender Custom Shop" horror stories), but a lot of the time they don't quite nail "it".
Plus, there's the collector side of it. I don't think it makes much sense, but it started making more sense the first time I bought an instrument with "for collecting" being a primary (not the top) factor.
Its about collecting,at least in part.
It matters less how well it plays,not saying these basses cant be good.
BTW Im in to gibsons and a vintage EB can be found for similar price as a modern one,go figure.
It matters less how well it plays,not saying these basses cant be good.
BTW Im in to gibsons and a vintage EB can be found for similar price as a modern one,go figure.
Yes, though I think the technical evolution of, say, a 1960 to current Corvette is far greater - radically so - than that of a 1960 Jazz Bass to current basses generally. The manufacturing is far more consistent but the functionality has not changed all that much over so many decades. Hi mass hardware, active electronics, etc are not insignificant but not really revolutionary - more in the realm of refinements and a matter of subjective preferences. Even things like graphite necks have largely come and gone. Extended range basses and the ability to get exact specs one prefers are probably the largest differences.
I got my hands on a vintage P once - not unlike Michael League's natural P.
It sounded very organic and tasteful; especially with flats. Now; accuse me of heresy if you want, but I missed the practicalities and improvements of modern instruments eventually. You know, easy access truss rod and whatnot... Plus, such an expensive instrument can cause theft / damage anxiety. And it doesn't make sense to me to keep a barely played instrument at home "just because".
So I ended up selling it to a friend, and it is used in his studio for recording purposes to this day.
It sounded very organic and tasteful; especially with flats. Now; accuse me of heresy if you want, but I missed the practicalities and improvements of modern instruments eventually. You know, easy access truss rod and whatnot... Plus, such an expensive instrument can cause theft / damage anxiety. And it doesn't make sense to me to keep a barely played instrument at home "just because".
So I ended up selling it to a friend, and it is used in his studio for recording purposes to this day.
I really don't get the love for Nash. Just parts basses (Allparts, etc necks and bodies not particularly well finished) I can do the same. Check out someone like Bravewood to see it done at another level, scratch built: Basses
On the collecting thing, I've always just thought of it as resale value. I've never lost money when selling a vintage Fender (can't say the same for more modern basses) and those I sold them to were mostly real players - including rock stars and I've seen many of those same instruments used on stage.
Consistency, sure, but that is not the same thing as quality. Quality can be identical to or better or worse in the original models as a modern reissue. That's based on the individual instrument. So, for example, take my pre-CBS Fenders that are built just as well as my recent Custom Shop Fenders. Same quality, different manufactauring process.
In the last year I sold a '62 Jazz and a '57 Precision. I'm not a collector; these were beat up and refinished basses I'd played back in the day, but didn't figure I'd use again. Personal memorabilia, IOW. I'm getting seriously old--still playing out but I know the clock's ticking on me. These were in my closet, so I decided to move them out.
IME/IMHO the modern basses from good builders are much better made, and sound better. That's what I'm using for my shows now. YMMV.
IME/IMHO the modern basses from good builders are much better made, and sound better. That's what I'm using for my shows now. YMMV.
I've owned '62, '65 and '69 Jazz Basses, and none of them were amazing. Good, but not amazing. My FCS '60 Reissue J is better for me than any of them ever were. Yes, I've played some vintage basses that were magical. A good friend as a '62 P Bass that makes me weak in the knees when I play it. But in my experience, it's been more the exception than the rule.
I've also got an early '82 Jazz Bass. (It's got a '78 serial number, but I ordered from the factory, so I'm sure of its pedigree.) Basses from that era get no love, but mine is amazing. Yes, it's heavy. Yes, it needed better pickups. But the neck hasn't needed even a tweak in years. It's one of the best playing basses I've ever owned. After letting it sit in the closet for a long time in favor of high-end, custom basses, I'm playing it regularly now. The band I'm in loves the way it sounds. I do, too. The weight is also not nearly the issue I thought it was.
You've got to judge each instrument on its own merit and get what speaks to you. Ignore the hype. Ignore the bad press. Make your own decision.
I've also got an early '82 Jazz Bass. (It's got a '78 serial number, but I ordered from the factory, so I'm sure of its pedigree.) Basses from that era get no love, but mine is amazing. Yes, it's heavy. Yes, it needed better pickups. But the neck hasn't needed even a tweak in years. It's one of the best playing basses I've ever owned. After letting it sit in the closet for a long time in favor of high-end, custom basses, I'm playing it regularly now. The band I'm in loves the way it sounds. I do, too. The weight is also not nearly the issue I thought it was.
You've got to judge each instrument on its own merit and get what speaks to you. Ignore the hype. Ignore the bad press. Make your own decision.
I have a relic P bass. It was already 29 years old when it was refinished in nitro and the body was reliced. All the dents and scratches in the neck and the ever so slightly rolled edges are actual wear and the nitro feels amazing.
That's how old instruments feel and psychoacoustics dictates that if you enjoy the feel you will be inclined to enjoy the sound and embrace its quirks.
I think it's impossible to be impartial when playing a vintage Fender. You know it's old, you know it's extremely valuable and you know it has a long history that makes it unique and cool. It was made during "the good old days" before CBS took over and only cared about profit and all that jazz. Up to you what you believe.
It's true that experienced players who have access to any instrument will choose vintage guitars if they can afford it. Some say it's the wood, some say it's the different materials. It's hard to see through the marketing BS when we can't agree on tone wood, nitro vs poly, paper in oil capacitors and so on.
I know today in the era of CNC machines Fender puts out instruments with misaligned bridges and even truss rods. A machine is only as good as its operator.
Yesterday I played an all stock 77 Rickenbacker 4001 strung with Chromes, they felt like 50-105. Wasn't set up well, the action was too high and the frets were flat and worn down to almost nothing. I didn't particularly like the feel and certainly I wasn't in awe of it. The bridge was clunky, the bridge pickup was too quiet and the bass was too heavy. I loved the sound though. This echoes many experiences I read about of people trying out vintage instruments and being unimpressed.
Play a vintage instrument and see for yourself, it's not about the tone. My relic P bass doesn't sound very good and it's not a well made MIJ at all. Yet I love to play it because of how that neck feels. It's special to me, might be garbage to you.
That's how old instruments feel and psychoacoustics dictates that if you enjoy the feel you will be inclined to enjoy the sound and embrace its quirks.
I think it's impossible to be impartial when playing a vintage Fender. You know it's old, you know it's extremely valuable and you know it has a long history that makes it unique and cool. It was made during "the good old days" before CBS took over and only cared about profit and all that jazz. Up to you what you believe.
It's true that experienced players who have access to any instrument will choose vintage guitars if they can afford it. Some say it's the wood, some say it's the different materials. It's hard to see through the marketing BS when we can't agree on tone wood, nitro vs poly, paper in oil capacitors and so on.
I know today in the era of CNC machines Fender puts out instruments with misaligned bridges and even truss rods. A machine is only as good as its operator.
Yesterday I played an all stock 77 Rickenbacker 4001 strung with Chromes, they felt like 50-105. Wasn't set up well, the action was too high and the frets were flat and worn down to almost nothing. I didn't particularly like the feel and certainly I wasn't in awe of it. The bridge was clunky, the bridge pickup was too quiet and the bass was too heavy. I loved the sound though. This echoes many experiences I read about of people trying out vintage instruments and being unimpressed.
Play a vintage instrument and see for yourself, it's not about the tone. My relic P bass doesn't sound very good and it's not a well made MIJ at all. Yet I love to play it because of how that neck feels. It's special to me, might be garbage to you.
IMO it’s more about collecting, than sound.
whatever your poison, people will pay money to get rare, older versions that hold sentimental value. Whether cars, gaming consoles or baseball cards.
whatever your poison, people will pay money to get rare, older versions that hold sentimental value. Whether cars, gaming consoles or baseball cards.
I'm kind of torn on this.
I own a '79 P-Bass and while I own another bass which I alluded to, earlier and that one does a really good job of capturing "that P-Bass sound", there is something about the P-Bass which is different/better than any of the other newer P-Basses I've played.
It doesn't have one of those thinner neck profiles like the newer ones. It's a good, solid, fat feel in my left hand. Yes. It is heavy (10 lbs.), but not prohibitively so.
It's got a Maple fretboard, which normally, I don't like, but this thing plays pretty fast.
I understand some of the points being made by the nay-sayers. I had a '72 P-Bass years ago which was a cow pie. It was pretty quickly replaced by an Ibanez as my No. 1. I think my personal experience proves (or, at least, convinces me) that not all vintage instruments are the same and when you get a good one, you've got a real treasure.
I wonder how many people on the con side have ever actually owned a vintage 7ender (for more than a month or two) and still haven't found the secret sauce.
I own a '79 P-Bass and while I own another bass which I alluded to, earlier and that one does a really good job of capturing "that P-Bass sound", there is something about the P-Bass which is different/better than any of the other newer P-Basses I've played.
It doesn't have one of those thinner neck profiles like the newer ones. It's a good, solid, fat feel in my left hand. Yes. It is heavy (10 lbs.), but not prohibitively so.
It's got a Maple fretboard, which normally, I don't like, but this thing plays pretty fast.
I understand some of the points being made by the nay-sayers. I had a '72 P-Bass years ago which was a cow pie. It was pretty quickly replaced by an Ibanez as my No. 1. I think my personal experience proves (or, at least, convinces me) that not all vintage instruments are the same and when you get a good one, you've got a real treasure.
I wonder how many people on the con side have ever actually owned a vintage 7ender (for more than a month or two) and still haven't found the secret sauce.
