I could buy the argument on changing the string length if there were an extreme shortage of shorter length mensur basses available. However, this is not the case. There is no need to break the Luthier's Prime Directive. Simply direct the players to buy an instrument of the desired mensur. I don't believe that when the old Italian violins were converted, it was a case of doing it for the sake of the longer mensur. At the time these instruments were built the standard pitch (A) was much lower than 440cps. A total rebuilding was needed to take the much greater tension of the then new standard. Not just the necks were changed but most importanly the angle of the neck. The bass bars were also replaced. However, can anyone show me evidence (in print) where the neck/body stop ratio was totally ignored in the process?
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Double Bass Vintage King Mortone
- Thread starter Dave Burrill
- Start date
Just curious as to how important the "D" neck aspect is to most players. I've never noticed this too much from bass to bass once I got used to the way the bass felt in other ways (i.e. - neck angle, width of the shoulders, depth of the body, etc.). It seems to me that a good player should be able to adjust to what note is produced at the heel within a few days if the player is committed to the bass.
OTOH, I notice that I'm finding my old American Standard extremely uncomfortable to play these days because of the neck angle (the fingerboard is prety close to the top) and the width of the shoulders, which somehow seems to add a degree of difficulty to both right and left hands . I haven't noticed whether the string mensure figures into this equation or not, but compared to my carved bass, the Standard seems like a workout.
Arnold's New Standard, on the other hand....
Dealer: "You sound great on that bass."
Customer: "Oh, man, it's awesome!"
Dealer: "Is it comfortable to play?"
Customer: "Yeah, it feels great."
Dealer: "You look very natural."
Customer: "Thanks...by the way, what's the string length?"
Dealer: "It's 43 inches."
Customer: "Really?...Oh...you know, I think my hand's starting to hurt. I don't think I can play on a bass this long"
Dealer: "But this is the way the instrument was concieved. It would be a violation of the luthier's prime directive for me to shorten the mensur."
Customer: "What else do you have?"
Customer: "Oh, man, it's awesome!"
Dealer: "Is it comfortable to play?"
Customer: "Yeah, it feels great."
Dealer: "You look very natural."
Customer: "Thanks...by the way, what's the string length?"
Dealer: "It's 43 inches."
Customer: "Really?...Oh...you know, I think my hand's starting to hurt. I don't think I can play on a bass this long"
Dealer: "But this is the way the instrument was concieved. It would be a violation of the luthier's prime directive for me to shorten the mensur."
Customer: "What else do you have?"
Jeff Bollbach
Jeff Bollbach Luthier, Inc.
C'mon Bob- are you suggesting a lack of integrity if someone changed the mensur on a King[assuming a broken neck] to make it more sellable?
Sorry Jeff, but in this case Yes. Since I had in fact just finished doing a neck graft on an old King (which I still consider one of the best made Plys ever made), I had the option of making the neck shorter. I chose not to do that and apparently leaving the orginal neck length did absolutely nothing to keep it from selling since it was sold to the first person who looked at it.
Since I appear to be in the minority opinion, what other things do you guys consider OK to change? Change the rib depth? Reshape the upper bout of the top and back to make it easier to play? Can we just pick and choose the the parts of "prime directive" we want to keep? Just because we have the ability to do something does not mean that we should.
Since I appear to be in the minority opinion, what other things do you guys consider OK to change? Change the rib depth? Reshape the upper bout of the top and back to make it easier to play? Can we just pick and choose the the parts of "prime directive" we want to keep? Just because we have the ability to do something does not mean that we should.
I have reluctantly called my attorney. I will be turning myself in tomorrow to the local branch of the Luthier Police. At that time I will be placed under arrest for the crime of egotistical instrument modification. I admit to modifying the string length of several double basses to better suit their owners. I am woefully ashamed of my lack of integrity, and beg the forgiveness of the purist luthier community. The only thing that made my crimes bearable was the smile on the faces of my misguided clients, as they rid themselves of hand and arm problems, and actually played in tune...Incidentally, I have not only shortened string lengths, I have actually lengthened as well. I am so ashamed of myself. How will I go on?
Very funny Arnold. But.. Where do you draw the line on changing/repairing an instrument? Is there a limit? Or.. is all the stuff about not making repairs that can not be undone just a bunch of BS for the masses?
Maybe I've got this whole business wrong. Let's see:
(1)The customer is always right - even if he's wrong.
(2)I know more about it than the maker, so I'll change it to suit me (or my paying customer).
(3) We're Only In It For The Money! (with appolgies to Frank Zappa).
Maybe I've got this whole business wrong. Let's see:
(1)The customer is always right - even if he's wrong.
(2)I know more about it than the maker, so I'll change it to suit me (or my paying customer).
(3) We're Only In It For The Money! (with appolgies to Frank Zappa).
(I think Bob is still upset about Yoko...)
Okay. I am now going to draw the line:
_________________
__________________
Did anybody suggest that executing a neck graft w/a shorter string length was "work that can't be undone?" How about all the 3-stringers that were converted to 4-stringers? Or the left-handed player that wants his no name Joe German converted for him? Or the Engelhardt owner that wants a thicker neck/higher bridge, and can't afford a new-neck reset? These are all done with hide glue (most of the time); so what's the hubub?
King Mortone wasn't some maker whittling away by indirect natural sunlight. These are well made factory plywood basses, and they deserve all the respect. They also have relationships with players, and all relationships are based on a "meeting point". Some folks call it a compromise.
Okay. I am now going to draw the line:
_________________
__________________Did anybody suggest that executing a neck graft w/a shorter string length was "work that can't be undone?" How about all the 3-stringers that were converted to 4-stringers? Or the left-handed player that wants his no name Joe German converted for him? Or the Engelhardt owner that wants a thicker neck/higher bridge, and can't afford a new-neck reset? These are all done with hide glue (most of the time); so what's the hubub?
King Mortone wasn't some maker whittling away by indirect natural sunlight. These are well made factory plywood basses, and they deserve all the respect. They also have relationships with players, and all relationships are based on a "meeting point". Some folks call it a compromise.
Nick you need to listen to the words to "Talk to a Vegetable" to get the reference.
"Did anybody suggest that executing a neck graft w/a shorter string length was "work that can't be undone?"
Can you remove the handle and heal from a scroll to do a graft and then put that SAME handle and heal back on at a later time? That's reversible as I interpret the definition!
I'm still waiting for one of you guys to tell me the specific things you WON'T do to an instrument. Or... is this so-called Luthier's prime directive so flexible (and meaningless) that anything goes as long as you can make a sale.
"Did anybody suggest that executing a neck graft w/a shorter string length was "work that can't be undone?"
Can you remove the handle and heal from a scroll to do a graft and then put that SAME handle and heal back on at a later time? That's reversible as I interpret the definition!
I'm still waiting for one of you guys to tell me the specific things you WON'T do to an instrument. Or... is this so-called Luthier's prime directive so flexible (and meaningless) that anything goes as long as you can make a sale.
Jeff Bollbach
Jeff Bollbach Luthier, Inc.
You got me, Bob. I will commit sodomy to a bass if the price is right. Your moral high horse is much too princely a steed for us big city slickers.
Ok, I'm just a dumb hick from the hills of Kentucky (and a jazzer to boot), but what is this so-called "prime directive" of which you speak? If a person owns their own bass, shouldn't they be able to do with it whatever their little old heart desires?
I mean, I live in a nice 115 year old Victorian style three story brick house. My wife and I decided about six months ago to put in a modern bathroom with oak floors, a wedge-shaped corner shower with glass walls and doors instead of the clawfoot tub, and drywall instead of plaster. We hired a guy to do it, and never even considered that he might refuse on the grounds that the work was unstylistic and/or could not be undone. Like I said, I'm just a hick, but what's the difference? If someone owns the bass, why shouldn't they be able to control what is and isn't done to it?
While I have to admit that a certain amount of this has been rattling of cages to see what would happen, there has been a long tradition of luthiers that they would make no repair/change that can not be undone. I would hope that a luthier is on a little higher plane than the owner with an attitude of "I own it, so I can do anything I want with it". To me, that is somewhat like owning a fine painting and then painting a non-removable mustache on it just because you can because you own it. As I said earlier, just because you have the ability to do something, that in itself does not mean you should. The question, of course, is where do you draw the line. How good does an instrument have to be to be considers "art" and therefore deserve respect for the maker?
John Sprague
Sam Shen's US Distributor
- Mar 10, 2003
- 998
- 360
- 63
- Disclosures
- Sales Manager, CSC Products Inc.
Hi Bob B,
Of the four luthiers going at it in this thread, you're the only one I haven't met personally. I only know you through this board, but your posting style indicates that you're a good luthier and a helpful guy.
I'm just a lowly salesman pedaling instruments around the US, and if I've seen anything it's alot of shops and dealers. I have witnessed just about every ethics crime committed, from re-grads to relabeling to Italianizing, and every other low-ball trick you can name. Hell, I even walked into a shop that buys alot from me, saw at least ten of our instruments in his showroom, and not one had our label in it, and many had been "re-antiqued" and labeled something with a vowel at the end and a false date. One fiddle even had my largest competitor's label in it. It makes me think of The Llady'sMan's favorite laugh-label: Giussepe Pastashoota.
My point being, if many other dealers I've met were here, there would be a dead guilt-laden silence when ethics questions come up. But your fellows here are the example to use if someone wants to see luthiery done right. These guys obviously love the bass & respect the history and the artform. Even if I were to disagree with a stance they had taken, I'm inclined to think that it's probably not that unreasonable, and give them the benefit of the doubt by not asking them if they have ethical limits. You know there are "bad guys" out there in the bass biz, these guys aren't them. The presence of you four is a big part of what makes this community the real deal.
Not to goad you Bob, because I respect you, but have you installed any extensions? Aren't they on nearly the same ethical plane as string length?
Best regards,
John
Of the four luthiers going at it in this thread, you're the only one I haven't met personally. I only know you through this board, but your posting style indicates that you're a good luthier and a helpful guy.
I'm just a lowly salesman pedaling instruments around the US, and if I've seen anything it's alot of shops and dealers. I have witnessed just about every ethics crime committed, from re-grads to relabeling to Italianizing, and every other low-ball trick you can name. Hell, I even walked into a shop that buys alot from me, saw at least ten of our instruments in his showroom, and not one had our label in it, and many had been "re-antiqued" and labeled something with a vowel at the end and a false date. One fiddle even had my largest competitor's label in it. It makes me think of The Llady'sMan's favorite laugh-label: Giussepe Pastashoota.
My point being, if many other dealers I've met were here, there would be a dead guilt-laden silence when ethics questions come up. But your fellows here are the example to use if someone wants to see luthiery done right. These guys obviously love the bass & respect the history and the artform. Even if I were to disagree with a stance they had taken, I'm inclined to think that it's probably not that unreasonable, and give them the benefit of the doubt by not asking them if they have ethical limits. You know there are "bad guys" out there in the bass biz, these guys aren't them. The presence of you four is a big part of what makes this community the real deal.
Not to goad you Bob, because I respect you, but have you installed any extensions? Aren't they on nearly the same ethical plane as string length?
Best regards,
John
Actually John, I wouldn't even think about bringing up this subject of ethics with anyone other than these guys. I thought I had cleared this up with my reply to Chris. We all respect each other, but sometimes you have to take the opposite side of a debate just to keep things interesting. It's no fun agreeing all the time.
Bob- yes, I got the Zappa reference. How do you do a neck graft and save the original heel and neck?
John- that's the best Fuqua'd name I've ever received. Thanks! And the made-up Italian name was Giuseppe Macaroni. (found inside a stained-varnished fiddle from Colorado)
Chris- you sounded great the other night with the Javamen. By the way, you can manipulate a house much more than you can manipulate an instrument.
Jeff- how much?
John- that's the best Fuqua'd name I've ever received. Thanks! And the made-up Italian name was Giuseppe Macaroni. (found inside a stained-varnished fiddle from Colorado)
Chris- you sounded great the other night with the Javamen. By the way, you can manipulate a house much more than you can manipulate an instrument.
Jeff- how much?
