Vintage vs new.

[mongo2]

Dude, you're just another human with an opinion.

Aren't we all?

Each bass will fall within a range of sounds determined by it's design, materials, strings and electronics. All basses of a particular type will fall within that range of sounds no matter how old they are.

Due to the number of variables and the interactions between those variables, where the sound of particular basses fall within the range for it's type is essentially a crapshoot, no matter how old they are.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Aren't we all?

Of course, that's my point. We're all human, which by definition means we have fallible sensory apparatus further skewed by personal bias. Your opinion is valid enough and often well-reasoned. My only objection is your tendency to claim it as The Truth.

Speaking in general, not toward you: these subjective discussions often turn into flamewars when a debater claims "everyone who is experienced, unbiased, and has good ears will come to the same conclusion as me". That ad hominem attack (implying that those who disagree must be deficient in some way) is both untrue and inflammatory.

With no objective data present, exactly no one knows The Truth, no matter how strongly he believes his own opinion. IMO there are valid arguments on both sides. So, both sides should just relax and allow for the possibility that the other side could be right -- because they could.



Of course both sides can be guilty of "excess passion" (to put it politely); that goes without saying. I'm being non-partisan here.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Nothing wrong with excess passion

 

[mongo2]

Nothing wrong with excess passion

I don't think there is any such thing as "excess" passion.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I don't think there is any such thing as "excess" passion.

Do you have to disagree with everything? Can you agree with very passionate? Please.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Do you have to disagree with everything?

Threads such as this one exist primarily for the purpose of cultivating contentiousness. I for one find the whole process extremely therapeutic, and therefore I appreciate the MONGO2s and SMCDs for stirring the pot daily in most entertaining fashion. These are our unsung heroes of TB.

Mongo2, I salute you, long may you rock!

 

[mongo2]

Do you have to disagree with everything? Can you agree with very passionate? Please.

Can passion be qualified? It's defined as a strong and barely controllable emotion. Sounds like it defies qualification and is either on full bore or nonexistent.

 

[Son of Wobble]

 

[bachlover]

Is that the voice of angel choirs I hear singing, or is it the whiskey running through my veins?

 

[jd56hawk]

I like 'em all. VIntage, new, cheap, expensive, American, imported, electric, acoustic, stand up, fretted, fretless....

Well said!
Or should I say, well played?

 

[Laurent]

May we get that train back on tracks?

What creates good tone?

- The old dry wood that vintage instruments have?
- The fact that the instrument has been played for a long time?
- Hand-wound vintage pickups and the effect of time on them?
- The quality of the manufacturing/workmanship?
- The quality and variety of wood used?
- The strings?
- The worn out feel of an old neck?
- Can a relic match vintage?
- Can franken instruments sound as good as instruments which have been whole for 40 years?
- Is it the combination of several factors listed above?
- Could tone be a random thing?
- Is it all in the head of the musician playing the instrument?

 

[peterpalmieri]

Laurent. Good questions, I believe all those things considered and replicated in newer instruments is what makes for a healthy conversation. The feel of an old instrument plays a big part too.

 

[JIO]

More like it as far as a civil debate/discussion - thanks Laurent. Let's hope for the best.

I own 2 vintage basses; a '64 T-bird and a '66 P. I have others of various years and also have built my own. They all sound and play wonderfully, and are all different/unique in their own way. My ears and my physical interface w/these instruments have shaped my personal criteria of basses over time. Having said that, the '66 P is a recent acquisition. It is most definitely a player and did hard service since new. But it was professionally maintained over those years and is far from being considered "trashed" - more really broken in! Already owning the T-bird (since '78) and playing it professionally for years was my benchmark for "vintage" up to now. So now that I'm getting to know the P, I allow it to 'speak' to me by just playing it as much as possible both solo and in a band situation/live. Once I fall into the act of playing - what bass I'm playing becomes secondary. (you know that feeling right?) Well, in the process of that, this bass continually reminds me of it's personality. Like having met a new friend and while talking together realize how much we have in common. Is that a result of items on Laurents list? No way of concretely quantifying it, but I won't rule any of it out either. It comes down to if an instrument allows inspired expression and in this specific instance - this particular vintage bass does. Just a personal insight - not a blanket qualifier.

 

[michael_atw]

Selfishness and egocentricity are not the same. An egocentric person is one who (in part) is unable to fully understand or to cope with other people's opinions. Mongo thinks people who buy vintage instruments are foolish because he doesn't see intrinsic value/attraction in them. No different than me stating you are foolish if you like mayonnaise just because I can't stand it.

Is anyone who buys Levis over wallmart Wranglers foolish? The objective quality in the two is the same, and the Levis are not inherently better than the Wranglers; the Wranglers are certainly cheaper. I'm sure you could come up with example after example of this sort of thing. People don't consume strictly based on utilitarian reasoning and usefulness -- this is not limited to the vintage guitar market. Frankly I'm a bit shocked so many people are having trouble with this.

e·go·cen·tric
ˌēgōˈsentrik/
adjective
adjective: egocentric; adjective: ego-centric

1.
thinking only of oneself, without regard for the feelings or desires of others; self-centered.
"their egocentric tendency to think of themselves as invulnerable"
synonyms: self-centered, egomaniacal, egoistic, egotistic, self-interested, selfish, self-seeking, self-absorbed, narcissistic, vain, self-important

Definitions might help you relieve some of your shock. Also, with regards to Levis vs Wranger - I would not be surprised if both are made in the same factory in Asia. So yes, if someone pays more for the same thing they are exceptionally foolish. But you proved my point - if the Wranglers are cheaper and the quality is the same, then someone who pays just for a label is a knucklehead.

All I can gather from mongo's posts is that he recognizes the verifiable fact that vintage basses are only universally superior in price. Sound, feel, etc. supercede age and model. Many people think with all their might that Pre-CBS Fenders inherently sound better. Less, but still many, also think those in the 15 years afterward sound better.

But there's nothing about Pre-CBS that makes them any better other than subjective opinion. A blind test would be factual evidence that no one would be able to tell the difference between models spread across the spectrum of age and quality with regards to Fender. But of course, those tests would be dismissed.

 

[JIO]

Is it too much to ask that we stay on topic here? (w/o the vitriol)

 

[BassHappy]

May we get that train back on tracks?

What creates good tone?

- The old dry wood that vintage instruments have?
- The fact that the instrument has been played for a long time?
- Hand-wound vintage pickups and the effect of time on them?
- The quality of the manufacturing/workmanship?
- The quality and variety of wood used?
- The strings?
- The worn out feel of an old neck?
- Can a relic match vintage?
- Can franken instruments sound as good as instruments which have been whole for 40 years?
- Is it the combination of several factors listed above?
- Could tone be a random thing?
- Is it all in the head of the musician playing the instrument?

I must say, I applaud (actually standingly ovate) your intelligence, optimism and heroic actions in your honest and noble attempt to rescue this thread - but I fear that your musings are way too rational and common sensical to be able to gain any traction...

A shame actually....

Just my opinion, REALLY hope I am wrong....

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net

 

[Laurent]

Is it too much to ask that we stay on topic here? (w/o the vitriol)

+1. Guys if you want to spar pickup boxing. It's a really good sport as long as you wear head protection.

 

[Laurent]

More like it as far as a civil debate/discussion - thanks Laurent. Let's hope for the best.

I own 2 vintage basses; a '64 T-bird and a '66 P. I have others of various years and also have built my own. They all sound and play wonderfully, and are all different/unique in their own way. My ears and my physical interface w/these instruments have shaped my personal criteria of basses over time. Having said that, the '66 P is a recent acquisition. It is most definitely a player and did hard service since new. But it was professionally maintained over those years and is far from being considered "trashed" - more really broken in! Already owning the T-bird (since '78) and playing it professionally for years was my benchmark for "vintage" up to now. So now that I'm getting to know the P, I allow it to 'speak' to me by just playing it as much as possible both solo and in a band situation/live. Once I fall into the act of playing - what bass I'm playing becomes secondary. (you know that feeling right?) Well, in the process of that, this bass continually reminds me of it's personality. Like having met a new friend and while talking together realize how much we have in common. Is that a result of items on Laurents list? No way of concretely quantifying it, but I won't rule any of it out either. It comes down to if an instrument allows inspired expression and in this specific instance - this particular vintage bass does. Just a personal insight - not a blanket qualifier.

Interesting. Is there a bass on which you play better or flow better than other or do you find you're always in the ballpark regardless of the instrument?

I am starting to discover that when it comes to vintage, instruments that have seen a lot of playing often sound the best.

 

[JIO]

Interesting. Is there a bass on which you play better or flow better than other or do you find you're always in the ballpark regardless of the instrument?

I am starting to discover that when it comes to vintage, instruments that have seen a lot of playing often sound the best.

Any instrument can allow 'flow'. If it doesn't - in my book that's not an instrument I want regardless of market value or how old it is. When I saw this battered P, I thought - "wow, great looking war-horse!" and then after playing it I was drawn to it functionally - as a very playable instrument, and later one that inspires my expression.

 

[BassHappy]

Any instrument can allow 'flow'. If it doesn't - in my book that's not an instrument I want regardless of market value or how old it is. When I saw this battered P, I thought - "wow, great looking war-horse!" and then after playing it I was drawn to it functionally - as a very playable instrument, and later one that inspires my expression.

I have always felt, and I still believe - that the process of the wood aging over many, MANY years seasons it - in a sort of an indescribable way - and that the natural aging of the wood is what creates the true magic.

I personally don't think the bass needs to look like it was dragged by a tow truck and played for a gazillion hours in order to be deemed "the holy grail". I think the organic and natural aging of the wood tells the tale.

Every time I pick up my older instruments - they only seem to sound better.

Just my two cents.

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net