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Vintage vs new.

#21
I just tried an experiment now that my 76 Precision and 09 AmStd Precision have the same P pickup on them. Recorded them both and listened very closely for differences. There were none that I could pick up on. They're made completely differently, but they sound the same.
 
#22
If my Schecter was not so rare, I probably would install mild vintage style Fralins, but that would destroy the integrity of the bass.

The current set-up is Hot-Vintage pickups with push pull pots.
Tone control is essentially balance between the pickups.

The Jazz pickup is too middy for my tastes.

The only mod, I've made, back in '92 was widening the nut to run it BEAD and that's easily reversible.
 
#23
JimmyM said:
I just tried an experiment now that my 76 Precision and 09 AmStd Precision have the same P pickup on them. Recorded them both and listened very closely for differences. There were none that I could pick up on. They're made completely differently, but they sound the same.
Click to expand...

Going through an amp and speakers will smooth out the sound, especially with round wounds.

Going D/I, is where I learned a great performance bass, may not necessarily be a good recording bass.

I burned up valuable studio time trying to get a good sound out of my Rick 4001 running Roto-Sounds.

We ended up bringing in my SVT which burned even more time.

In the end, my Jazz with Black Nylon Wrap Wounds
was the overall favorite.

I was also going D/I into a $250,000.00 original hand built Legacy API console.
 
#24
People like vintage instruments for 3 reasons:

1. Nostalgia - some people want a guitar from the days when they were a kid. Either that or they want a guitar like their favorite old guy used to play.

2. Fun - people like old stuff. Cars, for example. A 2014 Dodge Challenger will smoke a 1970 Challenger in every way. Yet people will pay a LOT more money to own that old, slower car. Same with everything else.

3. Fantasy - some people think that certain old guitars were made with love by caring artisans using magic pixie wood. They think that these old guitars are "special", though that term really applies to those who believe this kind of thing.


It's not a big secret. Articles debunking the vintage myth aren't exposing anything that a rational person didn't already know.
 
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#25
I think there are a couple differences between bass guitars and violins that makes this an apples to oranges thing. People have been studying and trying to duplicate the Stradivarious for hundreds of years. In recent years, they've used an arsenal of modern hi tech equipment to do this. Given the amount of work that's gone into this, it's no surprise that they made some real progress, compared with say, a violin from 40 years ago.
For the Fender bass, they had a huge drop off in quality control during the 70's that gave legitimacy to the notion that vintage was better. The notion lingers today, even though I'm in the camp that says Fender's overall QC is higher now than ever before.
 
#26
Fender used Brazilian Rosewood for their fingerboards into the mid 80's. I think till '86?

Original vintage frets were German Silver Fret Wire

Dots were clay

The necks were made of naturally cured, select old growth maple.

Many vintage instruments do have some history to them too.

Where they went, who played them, what sessions or shows they were used in.

Sentimental value, collector value, they take us back to a time when American craftsmanship meant something special.
 
#27
smcd said:
People like vintage instruments for 3 reasons:

1. Nostalgia - some people want a guitar from the days when they were a kid. Either that or they want a guitar like their favorite old guy used to play.

2. Fun - people like old stuff. Cars, for example. A 2014 Dodge Challenger will smoke a 1970 Challenger in every way. Yet people will pay a LOT more money to own that old, slower car. Same with everything else.

3. Fantasy - some people think that certain old guitars were made with love by caring artisans using magic pixie wood. They think that these old guitars are "special", though that term really applies to those who believe this kind of thing.


It's not a big secret. Articles debunking the vintage myth aren't exposing anything that a rational person didn't already know.
Click to expand...

While this may be true for electric guitars and basses it is oversimplifying the world of violins.
 
#29
I like the worn-in feeling of older instruments and - although not 100% sure - I like the way a jazz bass sounds when the pickups become old (30 years+). But besides and after playing for nearly 3 decades I became very pragmatic.

IMO 99% of the sound of a solid body bass are the strings, the pick-ups and the pick-up location. The strings don't even touch any piece of wood, they touch some plastic and some cheap metal sheets. Pickups aren't microphones, they don't record "wood resonances", they record the vibration of the string. The more of the energy of the string goes into the body the less goes into the pickup, the less sustain the tone has (which may be prefered by some players). I even think body wood nearly doesn't matter at all, if the body would be build out of any other material that has a comparable density and weight, the bass would sound the same.
If someone asks me why my main instrument is a 36 years old all original Fender Jazz, I reply: it feels good and it sounds good. But I wouldn't make the assertion that it sounds better because it is old.
I still buy Vinyl for comparable reasons but would never assert that it sounds better than digital (it doesn't).
Seems to me that Musicman players a far less obsessed with the past than Fender players.
I know that some rave about pre-EB Musicman basses, but most Musicman players are far less nostalgic than Fender.
Maybe one reason is that Fender today is all over Fenders past with 1234 different versions of the same 5 old Fender guitars and basses.
Dirk
 
#30
I haven't looked for a new bass in over 30 years, so I wasn't sure if the new ones were stainless or old school.

In the process of documenting my bass, my luthier discussed a few points that help authenticate the originals.

The way I understand it, the wood for the necks was allowed to cure for several years before the necks were cut, so that any
blanks that had a tendency to twist would not be chosen.
 
#32
smcd said:
People like vintage instruments for 3 reasons:

1. Nostalgia - some people want a guitar from the days when they were a kid. Either that or they want a guitar like their favorite old guy used to play.

2. Fun - people like old stuff. Cars, for example. A 2014 Dodge Challenger will smoke a 1970 Challenger in every way. Yet people will pay a LOT more money to own that old, slower car. Same with everything else.

3. Fantasy - some people think that certain old guitars were made with love by caring artisans using magic pixie wood. They think that these old guitars are "special", though that term really applies to those who believe this kind of thing.


It's not a big secret. Articles debunking the vintage myth aren't exposing anything that a rational person didn't already know.
Click to expand...

There are good instruments both old and new. I play both. I suspect the older basses that are still around are the good ones, and that too can affect people's perceptions. The old ones that are played in are also very comfortable, like soft leather or old blue jeans. That affects perceptions too.
 
#33
JimmyM said:
I just tried an experiment now that my 76 Precision and 09 AmStd Precision have the same P pickup on them. Recorded them both and listened very closely for differences. There were none that I could pick up on. They're made completely differently, but they sound the same.
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised. Same pickup, same player, same amp, same strings (I assume), etc. makes sense.
 
#34
FFTT said:
...The way I understand it, the wood for the necks was allowed to cure for several years before the necks were cut, so that any
blanks that had a tendency to twist would not be chosen.
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of Fender ever doing that but I know some luthiers today who do for their builds. Fender was mass producing so I'd be surprised if the wood stayed around that long. But he may have had better selection to begin with. I've heard it's getting harder to find good wood today, supply isn't what it used to be.
 
#35
smcd said:
This is a bit of fanciful thinking.
Click to expand...

The availability of better woods was more commonplace 50 years ago.

Now those woods are only available at a premium.

According to a Fender Gold Level Certified luthier with decades of experience, the neck blanks were allowed to sit, so that any showing signs of twisting, warping, bending, were pulled from stock.
 
#36
The guys in my band swear by vintage instruments. The guitar players have 50's and 60's era Fenders and Gibsons, our drummer plays a 54 Gretsch kit with a 1920 Ludwig snare. The amps are all old too.

After hearing all their BS about how my newer basses were not as good as the old stuff I did some homework and bought a '64 P-bass. Turns out it's the best sounding P-bass I've owned, plays wonderful, etc. Coincidence? They say "I told you so." But I say it's just a good one, it was good 50 years ago and is still good today. Makes it harder for me to argue with them now, however.
 
#38
JimmyM said:
I just tried an experiment now that my 76 Precision and 09 AmStd Precision have the same P pickup on them. Recorded them both and listened very closely for differences. There were none that I could pick up on. They're made completely differently, but they sound the same.
Click to expand...

I would be willing to be good money that the newer P bass was better made and easier to play, too.
 
#40
Malak the Mad said:
I think you're being a little harsh, Harry. Remember, what is "good tone and sound" is still incredibly subjective. Within reasonable bounds, any instrument can sound like "The One" to someone. That being said, there are also no shortage of people in the "anything new is crap" camp, so I can understand where you're coming from.

But to get back on topic, there was another recent thread about the qualities of different Jazz basses across several decades. Although the study linked within wasn't done with anywhere the level of scientific method (understandably so, given the circumstances mentioned by Tom Bowlus), like the violin article, it challenges the myths that build up based on the notions of we fallible human beings.

Here's the original article from Bass Gear Magazine.
http://btpub.boyd-printing.com/arti..._Bass_(1960-1980)/1236975/135014/article.html
Click to expand...

I'm going purely by first hand observation - I was there, as an active musician and gear buyer in the late '70s / early '80s and what Fender did during those years (until the mid-'80s turnaround) was just a shame. They sold some of the worst gear I have ever seen, period. Guitars, basses, amps - all of it was just caca. I was (and am) very pleased that they reversed course, but to deny the fact that they had a period where they made bad instruments is just... not true. Yes, I know - in 2014, anything that's 30 years old MUST be "vintage" - well, not all vintages are good. There is a reason that first bass I bought AFTER I had my '77 Jazz bass was NOT a Fender because Fender was stagnant and *bad* at that time. Would I own a 1990 Fender? Sure. I've owned a few mid '90s Fenders - they're fine instruments, for mass produced gear.

As for how an instrument sounds - well, engineers can work miracles, and the ear is very subjective - but I'm really talking about workmanship and how an instrument plays. I feel pretty confident that if I could take a 2014 stock AM std J bass, time travel to 1977 and show it off, it would *blow folks away*.
 

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