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Vocal Mic insight

#2 is all me and I am pretty sure he was very excited about his new acquisitions. The other thing is I very much respect the opinions of these particular FOH guys. Honestly I never had an issue with my 1973 Shure SD565 (which I use exclusively for band practices)
Heheh, yeah, i see that with a lot of different things in music and beyond. A new thing comes out, or someone finds something that's a little different from the usual piece of gear. It's good in its own right. The "old thing" is also good. But they're just different enough to be different. But the "new thing" is new, and there's all kinds of hype around it. But really, simultaneously, the hype is overblown, and the pushback against the hype is also overblown. So long as the different pieces of gear are quality and do their job, they're just gonna be different tools with different characteristics.

Also, we know this as bass players: Sometimes we play a bass that just plays and feels and sounds "right" to us, and we can make it work for almost every situation. It's a different bass for each of us.

Same thing with mics and audio engineers. Line up 5 similar quality mics that were built for the same task (say, stage vocal mics) and different engineers will just gel with different mics. For whatever reason, they'll just enjoy working with one of the mics for whatever reason. They'll all use a different mic and do an equally good job. (assuming they're skilled engineers) :laugh:

But we mistake our love for that bass or mic as some universal truth of "betterness". But really it's just a good tool that we really like for ourselves.

All that said, if you're a #2, now you have an excuse to buy a new mic to play with. 😇 You don't need it, but also, you don't specifically need to NOT have it neither.
 
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Paging @micguy
OK, I'm jumping into the middle of a lot of opinions. Having spent my career designing a lot of pro audio gear, including work on some of the mics mentioned here, I have a few comments:

The difference between a textbook supercardioid and a textbook cardioid mic - in terms of gain before feedback is....about 2 dB. That's something, but not a huge effect - it will not take a horrible situation and make it good. Most mics that bill themselves as one or the other will, at some frequencies be a cardioid, and at others, closer to a super. A smaller diameter condenser capsule can get you a more consistent polar pattern over frequency than a larger diaphragm condenser or a dynamic - the Physics gives you that as a starting point, but how you design things and trade things off counts a lot in terms of the final result as well. If you are on loud stages in small places, with an ad hoc PA that goes everywhere, including back to the stage, and you have wedges cranked, and a singer with a not so powerful voice, a supercardiod might buy you a bit more forgiveness, but not all that much - it's one of a bunch of things you can do to manage a poor situation, but it's not a cure all by any means.

In other situations - particularly places with a good PA that doesn't spill a lot on stage, and in ears, supercardioids aren't really necessary - in those cases, the pattern forgiveness of a cardioid (and less proximity effect to manage) is an advantage. If the stage isn't too loud, bleed isn't really an issue - you have fixed the problem at it's source.

One specific thing I will comment on: Someone said with a condenser mic, you will need less gain. Yes, most condensers are a bit hotter in terms of sensitivity. That means you will run the input trim (or the fader) at a different place. That is almost never an issue in the real world, What can be is, with certain loud singers, you can run out of headroom with a condenser - if the "hotter" mic overdrives a stage in the signal chain before the trim control, you have something you can't fix with that mic - it's too hot. This is rare, but it does happen.

I'm not going to comment too much on specific mics - the interaction between a mic, a singer, and a FOH person has two very non linear devices in it (the people), and whatever they decide works, works. There are reasons to pick a certain mic for a certain type of voice, but there are no absolute things you can say. One of the singers I worked with for a number of years (doing FOH at a big church)) had a voice that was pretty strong on sibilants. The sound guys there had various techniques to deal with it, as most vocal mics have some treble/presence boost - that helps with most, but not all voices.

My approach was....I went to one of the Engineers that I worked with (I was his boss, so it was natural for him to say yes), and had him make me a vocal mic of a certain type, but without the resonator which gives that presence boost. Not every FOH person has a mic lab full of talented Engineers at their disposal, I know, but I did, and that worked very well. Interactions with various artists of note (and/or their FOH Engineers) gave us input that helped guide development of new models of microphones - a good Engineer needs to know their customers and what their issues are. I did a lot of FOH gigs, which helped me understand how to do my day job better (my day job also made me a better FOH person).

The topic of "sound guys vs musicians" comes up here often - in this context, that sound guys might want to use what they are familiar with. And you want to use a mic that you are familiar with. So, we have two "strong willed" people that come into a situation, and they have to co-exist. I'm a musician as well as a FOH person. I see this kind of thing from both sides. The thing that fixes this problem is communicating clearly and being flexible. Yes, the FOH person you are working with may not be the guy I know who has done FOH for decades for big touring acts - he's probably not that good, or that experienced. But that highly experienced guy I am speaking of got schooled by an artist once - the first day, he suggested (the guy has sold tens of millions of albums but has a nasal voice) a different mic. Oops. He hadn't established credibility and trust, and it took him (one of the most talented FOH people in the world) a year and a half to get to where it was OK to swap that mic out.

You are probably not an artist who has sold tens of millions or records. The person doing FOH for you is not one of the top FOH people in the world. Neither of you has enough power to be able to demand that things be done your way - you need to throw away that mindset. If you want to sound good, that person doing FOH (the one with the limited talent) has some experience with certain pieces of gear. If you go in and insist that that person has to work with a piece of gear that they are not familiar with, you now have put the person who determines how good you sound in a headspace that's awkward for them, and their limited talent added on top of that means...you have increased your chances of sounding bad. That's just not smart.

If you walk into a situation where there is time to have a discussion about what mic to use (many times you don't have that luxury), you can say "I have a lot of experience working with my XYZ model mic...are you OK with trying that? At this point, you shut up, and listen - what you can say has been said, and you should not push things if they don't say yes. If that person says no, then no is the answer. If you play the same place a lot, you might over time establish enough trust to experiment (I, as a bassist, have worked with certain folks enough that they know whatever I bring in on my pedalboard, it won't mess things up), but the first time in, I'd be very cautious.
 
There are lots of decent mics - and a few great ones available. Although Shure makes solid reliable mics, in my experience they get over used because a lot of people are used to working with them AND because they see so many others using them so they simply don’t try anything else. In many cases, if people actually tried other things they might like them better or find that work better for their application. My opinion is that mics should be chosen based on what the acoustic source is - either voice or instrument. Polar response is also a consideration.
 
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I bought an SR117 because I’m #2, and audio nerd who likes buying and trying different mics. 😝

I’ve only had it a few days and only just tried it out at home so far. Not sure if I’d use it for live performance yet.

The theoretical flat response looks good on paper. But it still has a strong proximity effect when you get close. So it’s not really flat because that proximity effect is exaggerating the lows. And, unlike most dynamics, there’s not much (if any) high-pass filter and no presence peak to counter it. So I’m getting a lot of low frequency build up that I have to figure out how to fix myself.

After experimenting with EQ for maybe an hour, I plugged in my $100 SE V7 and it got a lot closer to what I was going for with a lot less effort.

I feel like there’s a good sound to be dug out of the Earthworks SR117. But I think it requires more EQ than my simple live mixer will provide. In hindsight, I may have been better served by a Shure Beta87, which is also a handheld condenser but has the necessary filters built in. But I’m having fun playing with the new toy anyway.
 
I bought an SR117 because I’m #2, and audio nerd who likes buying and trying different mics. 😝

I’ve only had it a few days and only just tried it out at home so far. Not sure if I’d use it for live performance yet.

The theoretical flat response looks good on paper. But it still has a strong proximity effect when you get close. So it’s not really flat because that proximity effect is exaggerating the lows. And, unlike most dynamics, there’s not much (if any) high-pass filter and no presence peak to counter it. So I’m getting a lot of low frequency build up that I have to figure out how to fix myself.

After experimenting with EQ for maybe an hour, I plugged in my $100 SE V7 and it got a lot closer to what I was going for with a lot less effort.

I feel like there’s a good sound to be dug out of the Earthworks SR117. But I think it requires more EQ than my simple live mixer will provide. In hindsight, I may have been better served by a Shure Beta87, which is also a handheld condenser but has the necessary filters built in. But I’m having fun playing with the new toy anyway.


The first step is apply a HPF filter. Ideally it will be variable and the frequency you set it to depend on your voice and the range you will be singing in. A few times I have had to reset the HPF for a male vocal mic. I believe most of the songs were in the tenor range, but one dropped down into the bottom of the baritone range. I probably dropped the HPF from around 200hz to 100hz.

Most vocal mics have a presence peak in high mids that helps vocals cut through.

The following is cut/paste from a post I made about 6 months ago. I changed the text from the cut to italics.

I typically start with vocal curves that look like this:
1727721119921.png


This curve is generated with an HPF and 4 bands of parametric EQ. Normally mixers are set up with bass and treble shelving. When possible I switch the high and low band to parametric. I use dips to create all of the contours except possibly the gentle peak up high. It will most likely take quite a bit of experimentation for you to figure out where the peaks and dips should be centered, and optimization varies from one vocalist to the next. The contour can also vary a bit from room to room.

This curve looks like it's really gutting the low end, but keep in mind the EQ curve is compensating for proximity effect. To some degree the LF roll off is a mirror image of the mic's proximity effect.


Keep in mind this SR117 has a super cardioid pickup pattern. Monitors should not be place directly behind the mic. Instead, one or two monitors should be place approximately where the maximum null is (approximately) 120 degree.

1768705213669.png


The angel of optimum rejection angle varies by design. Here is the polar pattern for the SR117.

1768705329545.png

To my eyes the nulls appear to be at more like 130 degrees.
 
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Recently, I've had great luck with the SE V7 vocal mics. It's the first mic to come along that I liked well enough to replace my SM58s and Beta 58s.

They sound great, very easy to dial up for loud wedges, and at $100, a great price.

The pattern of the SE V7 is supercardioid, so that will be a factor. Our artist took a little getting used to it after a career with 58s, but now he loves the V7 and we carry and use them everywhere we can. We recently acquired a V7 capsule for his Shure UHF-R wireless system. Works great.

Both country music artists I work with have made the move to the SE mics. And I've bought 4 of the SE V7 condenser mics for my collection.
 
Recently, I've had great luck with the SE V7 vocal mics. It's the first mic to come along that I liked well enough to replace my SM58s and Beta 58s.

They sound great, very easy to dial up for loud wedges, and at $100, a great price.

The pattern of the SE V7 is supercardioid, so that will be a factor. Our artist took a little getting used to it after a career with 58s, but now he loves the V7 and we carry and use them everywhere we can. We recently acquired a V7 capsule for his Shure UHF-R wireless system. Works great.

Both country music artists I work with have made the move to the SE mics. And I've bought 4 of the SE V7 condenser mics for my collection.
I'm no expert, but comments about using Shure mics because they are safe and FOH knows how to work with them are very valid - as someone who plays and runs FOH. 57's, 58's, Beta's? Common as mud.
But.. (there's always a but"...
Not everyone's voice sounds good on a standard use mic eg: Beta58.
Mine always sounded better on Senn E835 or E945 - based on FOH info and how I sing.
I seldom do lead, mostly higher backing vox.
I've also used OM5, OM6 mics in the past. Great GBF on those!

Basically, one needs to try different mics to find "your" best-fit mic, as the specs are not the whole story.
That not an easy thing to do. It's not like you can buy and return if you don't like it or go to GC and try them out!
I don't let others use my mics - I always carry a Beta58, 58 and 57 with me along with my [current use] E945.
I sanitized/sterilize them all about twice a year!
 
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Agree that a supersardioid isn't the absolute cure , but it sometimes helps.

I like to use a Senheiser 945 on drummers vocal ,but it depends how they setup their mike.
More effective if on a straight angle , right in front.
 
Recently, I've had great luck with the SE V7 vocal mics. It's the first mic to come along that I liked well enough to replace my SM58s and Beta 58s.
I been preaching about this mic for a while. My Beta58 is now the 2nd vocalist's mic live and I used a reg'lar 58 on snare last week (today will be a 57, same-same without the ball) - that SE7 is like pre-EQ'd, not much bleed or prox effect - it doesn't necessarliy make for a sweet or pretty sound, but it does make for an audible one through loud guitars, and inexpensively at that. I like the red, also.
 
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I been preaching about this mic for a while. My Beta58 is now the 2nd vocalist's mic live and I used a reg'lar 58 on snare last week (today will be a 57, same-same without the ball) - that SE7 is like pre-EQ'd, not much bleed or prox effect - it doesn't necessarliy make for a sweet or pretty sound, but it does make for an audible one through loud guitars, and inexpensively at that. I like the red, also.
I like the sound of the SE7 but it seems low-gain IME. Maybe I just got a weak one? With the gain upped a bit to compensate it does great.
 
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The first step is apply a HPF filter. Ideally it will be variable and the frequency you set it to depend on your voice and the range you will be singing in. A few times I have had to reset the HPF for a male vocal mic. I believe most of the songs were in the tenor range, but one dropped down into the bottom of the baritone range. I probably dropped the HPF from around 200hz to 100hz.

Most vocal mics have a presence peak in high mids that helps vocals cut through.

The following is cut/paste from a post I made about 6 months ago. I changed the text from the cut to italics.

I typically start with vocal curves that look like this:
1727721119921.png


This curve is generated with an HPF and 4 bands of parametric EQ. Normally mixers are set up with bass and treble shelving. When possible I switch the high and low band to parametric. I use dips to create all of the contours except possibly the gentle peak up high. It will most likely take quite a bit of experimentation for you to figure out where the peaks and dips should be centered, and optimization varies from one vocalist to the next. The contour can also vary a bit from room to room.

This curve looks like it's really gutting the low end, but keep in mind the EQ curve is compensating for proximity effect. To some degree the LF roll off is a mirror image of the mic's proximity effect.


Keep in mind this SR117 has a super cardioid pickup pattern. Monitors should not be place directly behind the mic. Instead, one or two monitors should be place approximately where the maximum null is (approximately) 120 degree.

View attachment 7412022

The angel of optimum rejection angle varies by design. Here is the polar pattern for the SR117.

View attachment 7412024
To my eyes the nulls appear to be at more like 130 degrees.
Thanks! I found applying a -6dB/Octave HPF at 100hz matches the low frequency filter of the Shure Beta 58 pretty much exactly. So that’s a good starting point.

From there I think I’ll have to figure out my EQ curve by playing back a recording of the raw mic sound in the context of a mix and experimenting with the channel EQ.

Unfortunately my live mixer only has 3 fixed bands of EQ per channel. So I think the Earthworks SR117 may be better for recording, where I access to all the tone shaping I need. And I’ll use my SE V7 or Beta58 or Nexadyne or whatever for live use because those are better plug and play for limited mixers.
 
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I like the sound of the SE7 but it seems low-gain IME. Maybe I just got a weak one? With the gain upped a bit to compensate it does great.
Yeah it is quiet compared to other modern mics. But once you compensate at the preamp, the mid-forward sound of the SE V7 seems to mix well with other things, even though it doesn’t always sound pretty on its own.
 
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I like the sound of the SE7 but it seems low-gain IME. Maybe I just got a weak one? With the gain upped a bit to compensate it does great.
Yea
I like the sound of the SE7 but it seems low-gain IME. Maybe I just got a weak one? With the gain upped a bit to compensate it does great.

For comparison:

sE V7
Sensitivity 2.0 mV/Pa (-54 dB)

Shure Beta 58
Sensitivity −51 dBV/Pa (2.8 mV)

Sennhesier E945
Sensitivity 2.0 mV/Pa

Heil PR35
Output Level-52.9 dB @ 1 kHz

Audix OM
Sensitivity 2 mV / Pa @ 1k
Speaking of sensitivity, I was expecting the Earthworks SR117 to be a lot hotter than mine is. The specs rate it as -46dbv. But I find it just a little hotter than my Beta58 and not as hot as my Nexadyne 8S. 🤷‍♂️
 
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