Walking bass - what about those 6ths?

[JPK_DK]

So, a question to the experienced walkers:

one of the classic lines is to start on the octave (root) and walk down - 7th - 6th - 5th - next chord

The 7th is either major or minor, given by the chord

The 5th is either perfect or diminished, given by the chord (and less frequently augmented)

But what about the 6th? In a minor chord (standard minor 7 chord, not a minor 6 chord), it could be either a major or a minor 6th (dorian or aeolian mode, in essence). How does one know which one to choose?

Is it a "try-and-adjust-according-to-your-ears" approach, or do you determine based on whether it is the ii chord (in any ii-V-(I) movement in the changes) and then use the major 6th? Or is there another approach?

Thx!

 

[Groove Doctor]

Could you put up a specific chord chart for a song you had in mind please??

That would help us keep our answer very specific (and infinitely more agreement between us).

 

[JPK_DK]

Could you put up a specific chord chart for a song you had in mind please??

That would help us keep our answer very specific (and infinitely more agreement between us).

Ah, sorry... I was pouring over "Stella By Starlight", but I had hoped there might be a more general answer/solution to how to handle 6ths...

 

[mambo4]

I vote "try-and-adjust-according-to-your-ears"

My rule of thumb for anything NOT a chord tone is don't clash with the melody

keeping in mind that minor chords in Jazz are most often treated as Dorian -and that is likely what fellow players expect.

also don't forget going chromatic, and using both the major 6 and minor 6
Abersold would call it a bebop minor scale of some form

For Major/Dom chords the jazz wisdom is "6th counts as a chord tone"
But I don't know if that wisdom holds true for a minor /Dorian chord
so, yeah, use your ears!

 

[CallMeAl]

The 6 in the ii7 chord would be diatonic (in a major tonality) but there’s certainly reason to use a b6. I think it all depends where you’re going.

ii7 V7 I in C
D-7 G7 C I might play:

(Dm) (G7)
D C B A G….

or I might play
D C A Bb B

 

[dreamadream99]

Your clues will come from the Key and the other chords in the song. How does the six appear melodically and harmonically?

 

[Derek Kay]

Pick a few progressions that work.

You would probably want to use several in the course of the solos, and support, even tempt, the soloist to his peak.

 

[Groove Master]

The best way is to look at the sixth and see if it is in the next chord and play it.

For example: Cmin7-Fmin7. One should play the Ab over the Cmin7 because that note is in the Fmin7.
Cmin7-F7. Play the A because it is part of the F7.

Doing so make you call the next chord even without comping underneath.

 

[JPK_DK]

Thanks all for the valuable input so far!

It seems "context is king" (as anticipated) and "trust your ears" (i.e., play what is most musical) are the main take-home messages so far.

 

[Krakmann]

Salud!

I would look at the keyboard player. If he throws you an ashtray, play the other option.

 

[Slevage]

So, a question to the experienced walkers:

one of the classic lines is to start on the octave (root) and walk down - 7th - 6th - 5th - next chord

The 7th is either major or minor, given by the chord

The 5th is either perfect or diminished, given by the chord (and less frequently augmented)

But what about the 6th? In a minor chord (standard minor 7 chord, not a minor 6 chord), it could be either a major or a minor 6th (dorian or aeolian mode, in essence). How does one know which one to choose?

Is it a "try-and-adjust-according-to-your-ears" approach, or do you determine based on whether it is the ii chord (in any ii-V-(I) movement in the changes) and then use the major 6th? Or is there another approach?

Thx!

Yes, use your ears and don’t hang on a not that sound bad.
Keep in mind that a bass line moving in the opposite direction as the melody (counterpoint) is often musically appropriate.

 

[petermwright]

A m7 chord would typically be Dorian, i.e. major 6th.

 

[onda'bass]

1,3,5, 6th on maj,tonic minor. On dominant 1,3,5,b7 (b9,#9,b13)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

On dominant 1,3,5,b7

From Chris Fitzgerald's, Walking Bass.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

A m7 chord would typically be Dorian, i.e. major 6th.

If it's a walking bass pattern, don't forget about the chromatic approach notes, that has nothing to do with Modes.

From Chris Fitzgerald's, Walking Bass.

 

[JPK_DK]

From Chris Fitzgerald's, Walking Bass.

View attachment 5457609

Yes, thanks, I am aware that 6ths can be used and also chromatic approach notes... My issue was though specifically how to deal with minor chords and whether the 6th was a natural (major) 6th as in dorian or a minor 6th as in aeolian.
Your example of a blues has, of course, no minor chords lol

Anyway, thanks to all for your input. I am learning this all in baby steps and trying to "construct" walking lines in order to get this under my fingers (and in my brain). I am doing pretty much the "simplified" approach from Ex 6 in @Whousedtoplay 's second example: R-R-5th-A (altering an approach note from below or above the next root); or, R-2-3-5 going up (adjusting for b3 and/or b5) and R-7-6-5 going down (adjusting for b7 AND the 6, which was/is harder than the others)

 

[onda'bass]

you will notice the 6ths are on weak beats. On a strong beats i would not use the 6th on a dominant chord.

From Chris Fitzgerald's, Walking Bass.

View attachment 5457609

 

[Jefenator]

Generally, I would expect a "natural" 6 to fit more often in jazz / blues / hip / improvised music and a "minor" 6 would fit more in classical music. (You shouldn't have to think too much about it in that setting, because every note would be written out for you. OTOTH those parts do need a little correcting from time to time...)
The overriding rule: if it sounds good, it is good. ("Good" being highly subjective & sometimes contentious. The more time you spend transcribing great recordings, the better your instincts will be. You might also get your questions answered directly by the very best.)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

My issue was though specifically how to deal with minor chords and whether the 6th was a natural (major) 6th as in dorian or a minor 6th as in aeolian.

Here is post from the Double Bass forum:

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/minor-ii-v-question.1573342/#post-26710107

"...it seems much easier to think of one big note collection with multiple options for the 6th and 7th that toggle up or down as needed."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

you will notice the 6ths are on weak beats. On a strong beats i would not use the 6th on a dominant chord.

I've encountered numerous bass lines (various styles) where you have the Dominant 7 chord but the bass emphasizes the 6th instead of the 7th.