Walking bass - what about those 6ths?

[onda'bass]

If you place a 6th on a strong beat and have no b7th does it really sound dominant? Again all the 6th in the example are on weak beats.

I've encountered numerous bass lines (various styles) where you have the Dominant 7 chord but the bass emphasizes the 6th instead of the 7th.

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[JRA]

But what about the 6th? In a minor chord (standard minor 7 chord, not a minor 6 chord), it could be either a major or a minor 6th (dorian or aeolian mode, in essence). How does one know which one to choose?

I think it all depends where you’re going.

"context is king"

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If you place a 6th on a strong beat and have no b7th does it really sound dominant? Again all the 6th in the example are on weak beats.

You have a bass riff of C - A - G - A - C. As a bass player I can easily recognize that "construction."
If I change that A to Bb - and it does not matter on what beat it falls in the riff - it will be a different melodically-aural "construction."
In my provided example, the chord is Dominant 7, even though, the bass does not emphasizes the Dominant 7.

 

[onda'bass]

C - A - G - A - C = a min7th no 5th or c maj6 no 3rd which is the weaker analysis. Not reflective of the harmony thats' all. Play that way unaccompanied and tell me what you hear?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Play that way unaccompanied and tell me what you hear?

OK.

 

[Papageno]

On a ii (m7) chord, I would avoid walking down to the V chord like, for example Dm7 to G7: D C B A to G. The reason is that by playing the 6 of ii (B) (which is also the 3 of V) on beat 3 (a strong beat), it sounds like you are already playing the V chord. Unless you intend to substitute V over 2 bars for ii V (which sounds perfectly good but implies a different harmony), this is not optimal.
My prefered option to clearly outline the ii chord for is to walk down chromatically. For Dm7 to G7, I would play D Db C A to G, or D C A Ab to G which avoids the B, in particular on the strong beats.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

On a ii (m7) chord, I would avoid walking down to the V chord like, for example Dm7 to G7: D C B A to G

From Ed Friedland's, "Building Walking Bass Lines."

 

[MuseChaser]

Other's may disagree, but in my experience, and to my ear, the thing to remember is that a good walking bass line walks TO somewhere, not OVER something, unless the chord in question last for two or more meaures. What is of primary importance, other than consistency of quarter note and tone, is the leading to whatever the next chord is. Whatever notes accomplish this, those are good notes.
Basic advice is to use the root or a strong chord tone on downbeat (3rd most likely, maybe 5th), another chord tone on the 3rd beat (3rd is typical, but other options work dependent upon choice for downbeat and line), and then choose notes on beats 2 and 4 pretty much solely on the strength of leading to other tones.
Worrying about which sixth to use is kind of a non-issue, unless you're playing So What, Little Sunflower, Impressions, or other tunes that stay on one chord for a while. Even then, strong leading is more important than remaining diatonic; I've played plenty of Bbs in the the D dorian parts of Impressions, simply to lead more strongly to an A in a downard walking line from above.

 

[petermwright]

If it's a walking bass pattern, don't forget about the chromatic approach notes, that has nothing to do with Modes.

From Chris Fitzgerald's, Walking Bass.
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I haven’t forgotten about that, I was just making a general point about the use of Dorian with m7 chords.

 

[Wasnex]

So, a question to the experienced walkers:

one of the classic lines is to start on the octave (root) and walk down - 7th - 6th - 5th - next chord

The 7th is either major or minor, given by the chord

The 5th is either perfect or diminished, given by the chord (and less frequently augmented)

But what about the 6th? In a minor chord (standard minor 7 chord, not a minor 6 chord), it could be either a major or a minor 6th (dorian or aeolian mode, in essence). How does one know which one to choose?

Is it a "try-and-adjust-according-to-your-ears" approach, or do you determine based on whether it is the ii chord (in any ii-V-(I) movement in the changes) and then use the major 6th? Or is there another approach?

Thx!

If you want to stay 100% diatonic you analyze how the chord is functioning. For hints, look at the melody and any surrounding chords that imply the same key center. Keep in mind not all chords are functional, so this doesn't always give you the answer.

Jazz frequently defaults to Dorian mode over minor 7 chords.
Ref: Everything You Don't Know About Minor Harmony • Jazzadvice


In all honesty, I sometimes avoid the 6th. Also sometimes a minor 6th is really an augmented 5...so you may play both.

Ultimately, listen to what your ears say .

 

[Whousedtoplay]

My issue was though specifically how to deal with minor chords and whether the 6th was a natural (major) 6th as in dorian or a minor 6th as in aeolian.

I'm trying to find "interesting" new pop songs.
Here is one "cool" song based on a simple bass riff.
It's in E minor.
Is it E natural minor or E minor with the Dorian "flavor?"
It's difficult to tell.
The vocal/s never touch any minor/major 6th, the bass riff does not either.
Only when the harmony moves to A11 (as G/A) we can figure out - we have the major 6th (as C#).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I would avoid walking down to the V chord like, for example Dm7 to G7: D C B A to G.

What do you think about "outside" approaches like Ed Friedland indicates?

 

[MuseChaser]

On a ii (m7) chord, I would avoid walking down to the V chord like, for example Dm7 to G7: D C B A to G. ....

Why? One of the reasons a major scale is the backbone upon which pretty much all western music is built is because it IS inherently a strong melodic motion or pathway from note to note, and a great line to play over a ii/V/I IS a descending diatonic scale. For instance, over a ii/V/I in the key of C, "D c b a | G f e d | C..." You get the natural leading of the scale with perfectly placed roots. It's one of the first things I teach. The leading is way more important than any hard and fast rule concerned with "correct" usage of the 6th, which degree, where in the bar to play it.... no need to worry.

What do you think about "outside" approaches like Ed Friedland indicates?

View attachment 5459414

If that example was played with good time, tone, and conviction, it would certainly work fine depending upon how the other folks in the group were playing. The Eb on beat three of the second bar of Bb7 is a little...umm ... ill-advised, and I'd probably play that bar F, Eb, D, Bnat, to lead better to the C (5th of F7) in the next bar. I also think using the C on the downbeat and emphasizing it by walking back to it and repeating it over the Gm7 chord weakens the progression, but it won't sound "wrong," especially at fast tempi. If you look at transcriptions of fast bebop tune bass lines, especially rhythm change tunes, you'd be AMAZED at how nonsensical some of the lines the greats come up with are when subjected to traditional analysis over the chord structure. Yes, notes matter, but not near as much as feel, tone, and leading someplace... either to the next chord, or sometimes kind of to the next MAIN key center instead each individual chord. It still needs to make overall sense, but sometimes we can fudge the "minutae" a bit.

An analog, perhaps, is the angst I used to experience in my younger days when orchestrating a sax soli in big band charts. I'd worry INCESSANTLY about how to voice every four or five note chord across the section even in a double-time passage of sixteenth notes. Took me forever, and I was never happy. Then the comparison to the Bach 2- and 3-part inventions, fugues, etc., hit me. When you play those very slowly, there are some ridiculously dissonant clashes occasionally, but the individual lines themselves are so strong that, at tempo especially, they work and sound beautiful. Same thing in jazz. The strength of the line can, and should, be more important than the "correctness" of any particular note. Now when I write sax soli, I have each part aim for target notes of longer or stressed value at certain chords of the phrases, and then just write strong lines in each part to get there. Most of the time, it's a MUCH better result, although I do go back and nudge certain particularly strange sounding voicings here and there.

 

[JPK_DK]

Thanks everyone for the continued discussion, suggestions and inspiration.

As always, this is deeper than I had envisioned...

 

[Papageno]

From Ed Friedland's, "Building Walking Bass Lines."
View attachment 5459139

Nothing wrong about this line. It just sounds more like 2 bars of C7 than Gm7 - C7 (which is fine if intended so).

 

[Papageno]

What do you think about "outside" approaches like Ed Friedland indicates?

View attachment 5459414

Those chromatic lines sound ok. They do not outline clearly the chords though. I agree it is not always necessary to clearly outline the chords, but if you want to, then there are better note chouces

 

[Tuur]

I’m not sure about the advice to “just listen” as some have suggested above. You need to know what will and won’t sound good before you play it, not after!

Also the whole discussion about strong and weak beats is a bit of a garden path, especially if you’re specifically interested in the scenario described of walking down from one chord to another. It’s more about the direction of a line.

I’d say the decision re a major or minor 6th depends on the key centre and/or progression you’re in. For example in a major ii-V-I you’d play the major 6th, so B if you’re in the key of C, because that’s in the key.

 

[petermwright]

I’m not sure about the advice to “just listen” as some have suggested above. You need to know what will and won’t sound good before you play it, not after!

When you’re practising, though, you don’t need to know in advance, you try different things and see what works, by listening. I think that’s the point.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It just sounds more like 2 bars of C7 than Gm7 - C7 (which is fine if intended so).

Yes, the appearance of the major 6th with Gmin7 creates a "feeling" like you are in C7 already.

 

[Phil Smith]

I’m not sure about the advice to “just listen” as some have suggested above. You need to know what will and won’t sound good before you play it, not after!

You know what sounds good by experience. There is no musician that sounds great "out of the box", you learn how to sound good just like you learn how to play your instrument.