Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Want to try for Phil Lesh's '71 sound
- Thread starter TheOtherOne
- Start date
Jim Carr
Dr. Jim
- Jan 21, 2006
- 16,223
- 7,614
- 76
- Disclosures
- fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
In October 1969 at the "new" Tea Party in Boston, the Dead used essentially only Sunn gear.
There must have been over three dozen 215 Sunn cabs on stage, and quite a few spread around the house. It was utterly deafening and down right ugly sounding. The bass was very muddy.
I was disappointed in the sound, but the crowd was enthusiastic about the performance.
There must have been over three dozen 215 Sunn cabs on stage, and quite a few spread around the house. It was utterly deafening and down right ugly sounding. The bass was very muddy.
I was disappointed in the sound, but the crowd was enthusiastic about the performance.
I notice a pattern forming here. Different people saw the Dead at different times playing different stuff. It has some to do with it but it ain't all in the gear. Just get something generally on the warmer, thicker side of things, not too modern/zingy, and work on technique/chops. The hartke mentioned will do that. You can take a pre out from it now and run it to your powered cab, use it to power a bass cab down the road when you get one. Some pedals can do that you can plug into your pa cab. If you can swing one of the preamps mentioned, they will hold their value. A lot of that tone is in the hands, not just the gear.
Well, using similar gear is one way to go about it but not what I'd do. Music tech has come such a long way (in no small part thanks to the dead 
) that there are much better options. The bass sound on American Beauty, for instance, was made up of three signals: mics on the bi-amped rig and a DI. It's just a bit much. Who bi-amps any more?
So, focus on your technique, getting nice, warm, round, notes (you should be able to put a baby to sleep with them) first, before moving on to anything else (big, round, legato notes are the foundation of bass playing). Once you've got that, any full range rig with a ridiculously elaborate preamp section (several bands of semi-para eq, ideally) should do.
Great to have another deadhead on the forum! Oh, and I'd try to swap the P for a J if the wife'll allow. You have a lot more tonal options with the two single coils and a smoother sound in general (more Phil-like, anyway). Phil did use a J a few times but I'm digressing.
) that there are much better options. The bass sound on American Beauty, for instance, was made up of three signals: mics on the bi-amped rig and a DI. It's just a bit much. Who bi-amps any more?So, focus on your technique, getting nice, warm, round, notes (you should be able to put a baby to sleep with them) first, before moving on to anything else (big, round, legato notes are the foundation of bass playing). Once you've got that, any full range rig with a ridiculously elaborate preamp section (several bands of semi-para eq, ideally) should do.
Great to have another deadhead on the forum! Oh, and I'd try to swap the P for a J if the wife'll allow. You have a lot more tonal options with the two single coils and a smoother sound in general (more Phil-like, anyway). Phil did use a J a few times but I'm digressing.
...on a BMax-T. How's that for impatient?
But I have my reasons:
- similar to the F1-X but at almost 1/2 the price;
- has a compressor and para EQ for mids;
- no longer available at almost any online store and certainly not any of my "local" stores, and only 1 left at Amazon;
- no used ones anywhere;
- no used Alembics at a price/age I thought worth taking;
- no integrated amps with that preamp style that I thought would match its sound, esp. for recording, in my price range;
- 5 year warranty;
- I really wanted it
...and I could use Amex points for almost 1/2 the cost.
I called BBE to ask why they weren't available at most places and they said they would not be producing any more until they found a new manufacturer - I asked if it was due to quality and the guy said no, it's because they want to lower the cost; and they were shooting for late spring for when they would be available again.
Seems to me like the "push-costs-down" effort is unlikely to improve quality or reliability. They're already made in China - where are they going to go to make it cheaper? Put it all together, and I was able to convince myself that I had good, logical reasons for doing exactly what I wanted.
Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions and advice - and don't be put off if I didn't follow yours, it was still helpful.
I expect to receive it by Saturday. Can't wait!
But I have my reasons:
- similar to the F1-X but at almost 1/2 the price;
- has a compressor and para EQ for mids;
- no longer available at almost any online store and certainly not any of my "local" stores, and only 1 left at Amazon;
- no used ones anywhere;
- no used Alembics at a price/age I thought worth taking;
- no integrated amps with that preamp style that I thought would match its sound, esp. for recording, in my price range;
- 5 year warranty;
- I really wanted it
...and I could use Amex points for almost 1/2 the cost.
I called BBE to ask why they weren't available at most places and they said they would not be producing any more until they found a new manufacturer - I asked if it was due to quality and the guy said no, it's because they want to lower the cost; and they were shooting for late spring for when they would be available again.
Seems to me like the "push-costs-down" effort is unlikely to improve quality or reliability. They're already made in China - where are they going to go to make it cheaper? Put it all together, and I was able to convince myself that I had good, logical reasons for doing exactly what I wanted.
Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions and advice - and don't be put off if I didn't follow yours, it was still helpful.
I expect to receive it by Saturday. Can't wait!
Congrats on the B-Max T! Remember that it has the Fender-style tone stack. I am currently in a reformation of a Grateful Dead coverband that I gigged with every Saturday night for 5+ years and we gave it a rest for the better part of a decade. I am really enjoying playing their music again especially since my main gig is a corporate cover band. Pretty much anything goes and the bass can really steer the band doing the Dead thing. Have fun with it and don't get too caught up in the tone thing, go for the feeling.
Passin', I wish I could afford the Alembic, but I got as close as I thought I reasonably could...
I agree, a good part of tone is in the hands and chops are more important than gear, but I have found it's important to me to have the sound coming out of the speakers be close to what I hear in my head. That's why, as a guitar player and lifelong fan of Jerry's '71-'72 tone, I use a '67 Bandmaster and a '63 Princeton. I used to have a '66 Twin but that was ridiculous. So I have something not exact, but close enough for me and it sounds great.
Thanks, Deepwoods. The tone stack was a major reason for the purchase! Good luck with your band, glad to see you still have a love for the music. "Anything goes" is a big part of the attraction this stuff has for me.
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
Actually, the recordings are pretty accurate. In 1971, Phil transitioned from the EB3 to the Starfire with Alembic mods. I think it's the former that TOO is going for, but they are similar in a lot of ways. The key point is a 30.5" scale and wide range pickups with preamps. When I plug in my Starfire, it pretty much nails the tone, although it's a late '71 to '74 tone. I'd love to get an SG bass to get the '70-'71 tone, but it's not very high up on my list of priorities.
The other big things are to use flat wounds, preferably more like Thomastiks than the classic high tension flat, play with a pick and learn how chords function within diatonic harmony.
Attachments
Any idea when Phil was using a G&L? I have done a lot of research on his gear (Philzone, rukind.com, Modulus, Eden forums) this is the 1st mention anywhere I've ever seen about a G&L. I haven't seen or heard of Phil playing anything besides his Alembic or one of his many Modulus' in a long long time. Also Phil now runs 4 4x10 Eden cabs, so I guess he's changed his mind about the need for 18s. Anyways just curios about the G&L and when he was using it because I'd like to go back and hear some of those shows in comparison to the other basses.
The Greek Theatre, at the University of California, May 23, 1982 Phil was using his G&L. If you find recordings from 1982, I think Phil used his G&L for alot of gigs that year. I, of course, own a 1982 G&L just like Phil's. Hero worship at the max.
I've already posted once on this thread, but I'll chime in again. All the gear discussion is great and I love it. But if you think the audience notices a lot of these distinctions, you're mistaken. I think what they will notice is your choice of note patterns and where and how to play them. Phil was a unique mix of rock, jazz and bluegrass in his choices, much of it played high up on the (fretted) neck. Study his choices and try to emulate them. To me that's more important than the gear. Although I do like talking about the gear too. 
Going through the hundreds of Dead books and such, Phil used the G&L on Gigs in March and April of 1982. He also used the G&L at the U.S. Festival in September of 1982, and it was shortly after that he switched to his custom 6 string Alembic.
Some of us "audience" enjoy checking out the gear too. When I hear great sounding bass, I always look at the gear being used. I think most of us realize having that same gear won't make us play like Phil, but it's fun to dream. TBers seem to like to talk gear, I know I do. You even say you love it chuck3, and I'm with you that technique is equally fun to study and attempt to emulate.
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
I saw him with it at the Boston Garden September 1982 show. My seats were not great so I don't remember the sound being all that distinctive. I had first seen a G&L about a year before that and liked it a lot (although the owner was very protective of it and didn't let me play it all that much.)
I've already posted once on this thread, but I'll chime in again. All the gear discussion is great and I love it. But if you think the audience notices a lot of these distinctions, you're mistaken. I think what they will notice is your choice of note patterns and where and how to play them. Phil was a unique mix of rock, jazz and bluegrass in his choices, much of it played high up on the (fretted) neck. Study his choices and try to emulate them. To me that's more important than the gear. Although I do like talking about the gear too.
I agree, however his tone is VERY different in certain eras and it's interesting to see the gear that contributes to this (in addition to different EQ settings and such). The Dead were always looking into new gear and how to improve their sound quality and overall performance. There's also a major difference in trying to achieve someones tone and trying to sound like that person or imitate their playing style. One thing I can tell you for sure is I recently switched over to Eden amps like Phil uses now and I can get almost any era tone of his I want with the parametric eq on there, regardless of the bass I'm using!
Thanks for all the responses about when he was using the G&L! Looks like I've got some shows to go pull up and check out!
Good point BassPlayer3187, the new gear does give bass players more options than ever to get those tones we so desire. The EQ and tone controls make for endless variations.
I never understand when someone on a gear driven forum mentions something like this. I can honestly give a rat's a** what the audience thinks of my tone or notices. It'll sound good for them, and that's where my worry about them ends. Every other nuance I go for is because I want it to sound that way.
Here are links to pics from May '82 with Phil playing what looks like a mahogany body/ebony fingerboard L2000e.
Grateful Dead Berkeley 1982 Concert Photos, page 1
These shows can be streamed from:
Internet Archive Search: 1982 greek
This soundboard recording from the 5-22-82 show, the bass is quite clear. Great tone!
Grateful Dead Live at Greek Theatre - University of California on 1982-05-22 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
this show from the next day sounds good too.
Grateful Dead Live at Greek Theatre, U. Of California on 1982-05-23 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Basically Phil sounds like Phil, on any good bass. I remember during an upstate NY tour around 1980 Phil played a standard white Fender P with white pickguard and maple fretboard for several shows. It sounded like Phil. Almost 32 years ago......geeeeeeeeeeeeez.
Must say, that the L2000e from these Berkeley shows does sound pretty nice. And the Greek is such a nice little place to see a show.
