I didn't dictate anything at all. I stated my opinions just as you did yours. Others can decide what is reasonable.
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Double Bass Warming up the bass?
- Thread starter AZNBassist
- Start date
I didn't dictate anything at all. I stated my opinions just as you did yours. Others can decide what is reasonable.
Yes we are! Questions and opinions are being contested, like any good debate.
Again, what is the line of reasoning that DRUB says should prevail here? Lets get that straight.
There could be a difference of opinion on his line of thought. Otherwise we would be presuming his thoughts on this discussion to be "right", without exploring our own individual thoughts on a very interesting (if not controversial) subject.
Again, what is the line of reasoning that DRUB says should prevail here? Lets get that straight.
There could be a difference of opinion on his line of thought. Otherwise we would be presuming his thoughts on this discussion to be "right", without exploring our own individual thoughts on a very interesting (if not controversial) subject.
Matthew Tucker
Commercial User
- Aug 21, 2002
- 2,686
- 387
- Disclosures
- Owner: Bresque Basses, Sydney Basses and Cellos
I think we should all agree on
"yes, it is possible there are short term physical changes to an instrument brought about by a "playing-in" or "warm-up" process, but as yet there is no conclusive scientific explanation for it."
to put the original question to bed, and then have a group hug and retire to our corners to discuss mumbo jumbo, or science, or whatever we feel like, without dissing the opposition.
Even our resident expert - who is now wisely staying well clear of the discussion - said that the reasons why were a mystery to him. I interpret that as meaning he has no empirical evidence to support his observation. But I believe his observation nonetheless, and although there probably IS a scientific explanation for everything, I for one am not expecting a conclusive answer any time soon, nor am I seeking one, nor would I automatically believe it if another expert (of which there are many, Nagyvary among others) came up with a scientific explanation.
If a fractal sum can generate a convincing tree (or at least, an image of one) I can believe that somewhere there probably is a mathematical formula for Chopin's preludes as well, but I'm not so sure I need to know this to be able to play them and to enjoy them.
And I am for the moment happy to discuss creative theories of why and wherefore of art and luthiery, even in the absence of science. Its interesting and fun to hear the range of experiences people are having.
But ... I would be happy to be disabused of these notions by the presentation of empirical evidence!
AZNBassist, has your question been answered yet?
"yes, it is possible there are short term physical changes to an instrument brought about by a "playing-in" or "warm-up" process, but as yet there is no conclusive scientific explanation for it."
to put the original question to bed, and then have a group hug and retire to our corners to discuss mumbo jumbo, or science, or whatever we feel like, without dissing the opposition.
Even our resident expert - who is now wisely staying well clear of the discussion - said that the reasons why were a mystery to him. I interpret that as meaning he has no empirical evidence to support his observation. But I believe his observation nonetheless, and although there probably IS a scientific explanation for everything, I for one am not expecting a conclusive answer any time soon, nor am I seeking one, nor would I automatically believe it if another expert (of which there are many, Nagyvary among others) came up with a scientific explanation.
If a fractal sum can generate a convincing tree (or at least, an image of one) I can believe that somewhere there probably is a mathematical formula for Chopin's preludes as well, but I'm not so sure I need to know this to be able to play them and to enjoy them.
And I am for the moment happy to discuss creative theories of why and wherefore of art and luthiery, even in the absence of science. Its interesting and fun to hear the range of experiences people are having.
But ... I would be happy to be disabused of these notions by the presentation of empirical evidence!
AZNBassist, has your question been answered yet?
Matthew Tucker
Commercial User
- Aug 21, 2002
- 2,686
- 387
- Disclosures
- Owner: Bresque Basses, Sydney Basses and Cellos
I answered that one. Just read what I said:
My plea to let reason prevail was a general statement saying that folks here should read this and decide what is reasonable.
Well, if by "ears" you mean that the player is being cued with regard for what to listen and focusing attention on the relevant dimensions, that is quite possibly a factor. If you mean that the actual hearing apparatus is changing in any substantial or meaningful way by warming up the bass, I can assure you that that is not the case.
The lack of an apparent explanation does not cast doubts in my mind as to the validity of the effect, because I doubt that the scientific community has ever even considered the phenomenon. And even if they did consider it, many of the subtleties of stringed instruments are not understood scientifically. [Although that is my perception, admitedly I haven't read all of the literature including the link you provided to the Cat Gut Society.] Furthermore, I don't think that this warm up effect would be of primary interest to those studying instruments, as most of the research would be directed towards improving instrument design and overall performance, I expect, rather than understanding this particular transient type of effect. Also, I have experienced the phenomenon myself and I have discussed the effect with my teacher, who is someone I consider to be knowledgeable about the double bass - so I am convinced that it is real [and it never really mattered to me whether it was the strings, bow or bass - what is important is to get the instrument into the desired warmed-up state quickly].
It seems, from your posts, that you are skeptical as to the reality of the effect, and you seek an explanation to validate the claim. On this point we differ. I respect your position, but hope you will try it on your bass - because if you hear it yourself, you may also not require a scientific explanation. [What I am specifically suggesting is that you bow open Es and As, and also tri-tone double stops with the Open E and Bb.]
So, hypothetically, if you came back next week and said "I've tried this, and I believe that there is some opening-up effect." I still doubt that we could come up with a conclusive explanation for the effect. We might come up with some interesting theories, but we would have no way of verifying/refuting them. [Unless you have access to resources that I am unaware of.]
What does seem more plausible, potentially, is performing some kind of designed experiment to isolate potential factors: Player, bow, and possibly strings, from the wooden instrument itself. Firstly, could the instrument be recorded with a microphone and the waveforms analyzed to look for differences in the pre-warmed and warmed-up states? And, if so, then could the factors be isolated to determine what is causing the effect, or aspects of the effect? Even doing this level of experimentation is likely out of the realm of feasibility from a group of online yackers.
Anyway, I hope you are not put-off by other people's reluctance to accept your viewpoint. The discussion is interesting, although unlikely to bear fruit in this forum. You have been consistently, thoughtful, respectful, and polite, and that is most important in having this type of dialogue. I hope I have been so to you as well.
Jim
Somewhat skeptical, yes, but if this is what you took away from the totality of my posts then I would ask you to re-examine them. I have now remarked more than once that any warm-up effects that stem from changes in the strings and/or bow/rosin make complete sense.
I also said in an earlier post that I would, indeed, try this.
That would be fine with me.
True, but it wouldn't really be all that difficult to do. The greatest challenge would be the controls. You'd want to do it across a fairly large number of basses with repeated measures.
Thank you. It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. If there is anything by which I am "put off" it is the efforts of some (not you) to ascribe to me opinions and points-of-view that I have not adopted and to attempt to paint me as an unreasonable, staunch empiricist.
For the record, here is a summary of what I believe has gone on in terms of my opinions. The warm-up effect was mentioned. I said I thought it had more to do with the player than the bass. At the time, folks had mentioned changes in the wood. I did not and still do not believe that alterations in the wood are responsible. Then, the potential bow/rosin and string explanations were offered. After each, I remarked that those explanations made a great deal of sense to me. In other words, I accepted those as potential explanations having to do with changes in the physical aspects of the instrument, perhaps, in addition to changes within the player. I was especially impressed by Arnold's report that instruments are often "warmed-up" by someone other than the primary player. Somewhere along the way, argumentative folks mis-represented my thoughts and it snowballed after that.
I truly appreciate your willingness to actually read and think about what I have said. If one looks at what I've actually written, one will see that I have done the same with regard to what others have written and have modified my opinions as a result. That's one of the benefits of discussing all of this.
Les
Do you own a carved bass? if you do you know the wood is constantly changing due to weather, vibration and other things. Wood is organic material. All this stuff has to do with the same reasons new instruments don't sound as good as those that have been played on for a few years.
Unless you are playing touch-bass with an amp then most of the sound we make comes from the vibrating top so the wood has at least two states: still and vibrating.
One of the ways I have had to test this theory is when the bass has been through extreme climate changes.
I use a lot of upper harmonics and they just were not there when I drove from Oakland, Ca to Denver in winter one year. it took about 30min of these warm-ups for them to speak clearly.
I also think that museums must have a pretty good reason for having players come regularly to make sure the priceless instruments get played. I am quite sure they'd rather not if possible.
Yes.
No news to me there.
You are speaking of much larger variations. Your own words were "extreme climate changes." Yes, it makes sense that after those, the wood must again reach equilibrium. You are confusing matters of degree. The issue was whether a bass sitting at equilibrium which is then played to "warm it up" is changed as a result of changes in the wood.
I sort of thought this discussion had reached equilibrium.
Seems the circle is continuing.If you really want to know the answer, two world class experts on the subject reside in and have shops in Ann Arbor MI. They are Joseph Curtin and Greg Alf. When they were partners, they made exact copies of many of the finest classic Cremona maker's instruments. It is to their credit and reputation that the owners of these instruments (many valued at over $1 million) let them borrow the instrument so they could make copies that are nearly perfect replicas. I've had the opportunity to hear them speak at several violin makers conventions including the CAS/MVA joint meeting held in Dearborn in 1996.
You are speaking of much larger variations. Your own words were "extreme climate changes." Yes, it makes sense that after those, the wood must again reach equilibrium. You are confusing matters of degree. The issue was whether a bass sitting at equilibrium which is then played to "warm it up" is changed as a result of changes in the wood.
I sort of thought this discussion had reached equilibrium.
- Yes but it happens to smaller degree each time I play. Most experienced players will tell you the same thing. If you do certain things to really vibrate the top it will play better after you do. End of story. I experience it every time I play and I can assure you it is not imaginary.
End of story? Maybe your story. None of what you said seems to speak to whether the changes in sound that occur after a bass at equilibrium is warmed up are the result from any changes to the wood, per se. Of course, substantial temperature and humidity swings of the sort you referenced change the sound as a result of what is almost certainly changes in the physical properties of the wood itself. I already acknowledged that above. By the way, does 35 years qualify me as experienced? I didn't say, "good," but how about "experienced?"
This is quite interesting. How did the copies sound compared to the originals?
You call being dismissive to others questions and life experience thoughtful? And this discussion is bearing fruit. Probably not any kind that you care for I suppose.
I didn't say, "good," but how about "experienced?"
No, "good" wouldn't cut it with your arrogant, know-it-all attitude after 35 years we'd need great.
I got this information from great players and I have found it to be true in personal experience. That is what I am offering.
