Double Bass Warming up the bass?

[drurb]

You call being dismissive to others questions and life experience thoughtful? And this discussion is bearing fruit. Probably not any kind that you care for I suppose.

I never challenged, much less dismissed, anyone's experience. I simply challenged what were claimed to be the the factors that were proposed to account for them.

Well, I guess you are just going to read whatever you want into my words. You inferences are quite off the mark.

 

[drurb]

No, "good" wouldn't cut it with your arrogant, know-it-all attitude after 35 years we'd need great. I got this information from great players and I have found it to be true in personal experience. That is what I am offering.

You have, unfortunately, dragged down this civil discourse with labeling. Arrogant? I don't think so. Nowhere did I say that I must be right and someone else must be wrong. Neither did I denigrate any person or his opinions. That, unfortunately, appears to be your style. I never denied your experiences or those of any other player. I simply challenged the explanations offered for them. To the degree you find me arrogant, I find you less-than-careful in your reading and unjustifiably dismissive. Read this again and you will find far more flexibility in my thinking than that for which you give me credit:

Go back and read my words. I said things like, "I'm not convinced" and "I am suspicious." Those are hardly assertions. I also stated, "I would be happy to be disabused of these notions by the presentation of contrary empirical evidence." Hardly a closed mind.

For the record, here is a summary of what I believe has gone on in terms of my opinions. The warm-up effect was mentioned. I said I thought it had more to do with the player than the bass. At the time, folks had mentioned changes in the wood. I did not and still do not believe that alterations in the wood are responsible. Then, the potential bow/rosin and string explanations were offered. After each, I remarked that those explanations made a great deal of sense to me. In other words, I accepted those as potential explanations having to do with changes in the physical aspects of the instrument, perhaps, in addition to changes within the player. I was especially impressed by Arnold's report that instruments are often "warmed-up" by someone other than the primary player. Somewhere along the way, argumentative folks mis-represented my thoughts and it snowballed after that.

 

[damonsmith]

You have, unfortunately, dragged down this civil discourse with labeling. Arrogant? I don't think so. Nowhere did I say that I must be right and someone else must be wrong. Neither did I denegrate any person or his opinions. That, unfortunately, appears to be your style. I simply challenged conclusions. To the degree you find me arrogant, I find you less-than-careful in your reading and unjustifiably dismissive. Read this again and you will find far more flexibility in my thinking than that for which you give me credit:

I have dealt with your kind before. A bunch of well put together psuedo-polite sentences don't mask what you are really saying nor do they mask your smug, know-it-all arrogance.
The sole purpose of them is for you to be able to retreat in them and say "Oh no not me!" when you get called on your behavoir.
The only difference between you and I is that will come out and say what I mean and not embed it in a bunch of fancy sentences.
Whatever, It doesn't look like you are fooling anyone else, either.

Most of the great players I have studied with have at least mentioned warming up the bass and that it infact changes the wood.
How about this: I'll see Mark Dresser in about a week and I'll ask him then, and I will email Joëlle Léandre and see what she says about it.
I would give Bertram Turetzky a call right now but I am late in sending him a cd he asked for.

 

[drurb]

I have dealt with your kind before. A bunch of well put together psuedo-polite sentences don't mask what you are really saying nor do they mask your smug, know-it-all arrogance.

My kind? Well, your "kind" seems to be those who decide what someone else must mean despite the words he writes. You are correct about one thing. My sentences do not at all mask what I am saying. They convey it clearly. All you have to do is read them and take the words at face value. You seem to prefer to read into them. You're basically saying, "I don't care what you wrote or what you will write, I know what you really think." You call me arrogant?

The sole purpose of them is for you to be able to retreat in them and say "Oh no not me!" when you get called on your behavoir.

The sole purpose? I assure you that I did not write what I did for the "sole purpose" of retreating. That's absurd.

The only difference between you and I is that will come out and say what I mean and not embed in a bunch of fancy sentences.

I assure you that that is not (or would not be) the only difference between us! I have not embedded my meaning anywhere. It is quite clear and explicit in what I wrote. Fancy sentences? Now you are criticizing my style of writing.

Well, you see, I've dealt with your "kind" as well. You cannot construct a logical argument to counter what I have said so you resort to attacking me personally.

Whatever, It doesn't look like you are fooling anyone else, either.

I did not set out to, nor do I wish to fool anyone. You certainly are transparent!

Most of the great players I have studied with have at least mentioned warming up the bass and that it infact changes the wood.

Which "great" players claim that short-term warm-up changes the wood? How do they distinguish changes in the wood from changes in the strings and/or the player? What makes them expert in discerning which physical effects are responsible for their experiences?

How about this: I'll see Mark Dresser in about a week and I'll ask him then, and I will email Joëlle Léandre and see what she says about it.
I would give Bertram Turetzky a call right now but I am late in sending him a cd he asked for.

I'll stay tuned. When you do report back, please be sure to tell us how all the folks whose names you dropped determined the physical explanation for what they experience.

What I have said all along is that I am not convinced that short-term warm-up effects are the result of substantial changes in the wood. I did not assert that they were not. At the moment, I see no evidence that they are and it seems like other factors (player, strings, bow/rosin) would play a greater role. I do not deny that the warm-up effect exists. You are basically stomping your foot over this, yelling that it is the wood while offering nothing constructive, and attacking me.

 

[damonsmith]

You are basically stomping your foot over this, yelling that it is the wood while offering nothing constructive, and attacking me.

I am offering the provenance of my information as well as my personal experience.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

DRUrb

You say "read carefully", and I think we are.

Before you hit the reply button, reflect that perhaps if people perceive your reponses as arrogant, rather than denying that perception and plastering the topic with dissections of everyone else's responses, look at your own style and ask yourself why might they think that?

If someone tells me that I'm shouting it serves no purpose to deny it or shout back. Rather, I have to ask myself quietly, why do they think that???

If you don't believe in God there's nothing to be gained by trying to talk a christian out of it. Except a feeling of righteousness.

What you interpret as "attacking you" I believe is actually a defense by those who feel, rightly or wrongly, dismissed or picked apart by you.

I don't think you need to get so defensive and pull apart to the nth degree any posts from people that don't happen to agree with you.

You've stated your position way back, we understand you don't believe it has anything to do with the wood, although you are prepared to accept rosin and strings and hands.

But some of us are prepared to believe there are also short term changes in the response of the wood.

Can you accept that there is a possibility that this is the case? (Rhetorical - no need to answer, and no i can't be bothered going back over 50 posts to see whether that's what you said already or not)

Lets leave it at that, hey?

 

[AZNBassist]

Wow , its interesting to see where this thread went after my initial post. My original intention of this thread was just originally to open a discussion on whether or not spending some time (10-20 minutes) bowing long tones on the double bass actually has an effect and makes the bass's sound "open-up" as opposed to being played right away and sounding "tight", again, I guess what I heard from this before was that this "warm-up" (bowing long tones) had to be done arco because (as I heard) that playing pizzacato won't help the bass open up, since only playing arco can get the bass bar (or some other part of the bass) to get vibrating properly.

Though I guess it went a little further than a "little discussion"

 

[drurb]

DRUrb

You say "read carefully", and I think we are.

No, people have not. If they had, they would not accuse me of denying the entire warm-up phenomenon.

Before you hit the reply button, reflect that perhaps if people perceive your reponses as arrogant, rather than denying that perception and plastering the topic with dissections of everyone else's responses, look at your own style and ask yourself why might they think that?

Believe me, I have. I cannot deny perceptions. It is the case, however, that not everyone found my comments arrogant. The only one (or ones) who did, were the same ones who accused me of saying things that I did not. Sometimes the trouble really is with the receiver, not the transmitter. I believe that was the case for those folks. It is clear to me what caused them to have the perceptions they did. I'll leave it there.

What you interpret as "attacking you" I believe is actually a defense by those who feel, rightly or wrongly, dismissed or picked apart by you.

You see, that's by their own invention. Not once did I say anyone was wrong, nor did I dismiss anyone's beliefs. I said that I was skeptical. The ones who can't accept the beliefs of others are the ones who came after me! They could not accept my saying, "Gee, I don't think so." They just flailed about, stomped feet, and asserted positions. Then came the attacks.

I don't think you need to get so defensive and pull apart to the nth degree any posts from people that don't happen to agree with you.

Disagreement is healthy. This went way beyond that. Again, this was deciding that I meant something other than what I said, and that my motives and beliefs were something other than what I stated. That will provoke a reaction from me every time.

You've stated your position way back, we understand you don't believe it has anything to do with the wood, although you are prepared to accept rosin and strings and hands.

You understand that. I don't know about the collective "we."

But some of us are prepared to believe there are also short term changes in the response of the wood.

That's fine. You are welcome to your opinions. I simply stated that I was not convinced. Then came the attacks based on what others decided I must actually be thinking.

 

[Michael Case]

What's the harm in believing that 10-20 minutes of bowed long tones will open up the sound of the bass?

Well, I guess the world doesn't need every bassist doing 10-20 minutes of bowed long tones every day. So yeah the theory IS bunk!

 

[drurb]

What's the harm in believing that 10-20 minutes of bowed long tones will open up the sound of the bass?

Nothing. It seems from the reports that, indeed, it does.

 

[damonsmith]

Nothing. It seems from the reports that, indeed, it does.

Look dude, It is pretty clear to a lot of us that you were being unnecesarilly smug and condescending.
I could really care less whether or not you believe the orginal topic. Several of us
felt that way about your posts, so you are either being a jerk or writing in such a way that it is easily mis-read as such.
No, I have not been nice when I have responded to you, but I have also been clear about that fact as well.

 

[Heifetzbass]

Wow , its interesting to see where this thread went after my initial post. My original intention of this thread was just originally to open a discussion on whether or not spending some time (10-20 minutes) bowing long tones on the double bass actually has an effect and makes the bass's sound "open-up" as opposed to being played right away and sounding "tight", again, I guess what I heard from this before was that this "warm-up" (bowing long tones) had to be done arco because (as I heard) that playing pizzacato won't help the bass open up, since only playing arco can get the bass bar (or some other part of the bass) to get vibrating properly.

Though I guess it went a little further than a "little discussion"

IME- YES.

 

[Heifetzbass]

No, people have not. If they had, they would not accuse me of denying the entire warm-up phenomenon.

That's fine. You are welcome to your opinions. I simply stated that I was not convinced. Then came the attacks based on what others decided I must actually be thinking.

DRURB,

I think we have the classic case of, "it's not what you said, but how you said it." I think you have some valid points, but the way they were presented is what offended some.

As with anything, YMMV. I find "warming up" very good for the sound and response of my bass. It isn't me, it is the bass that "wakes up." If you don't believe it, come stand next to me as it starts to shake more and more of the ground around me... I am not going to offer any explanation, but IME it does happen.

I enjoyed reading this thread for a while. :scowl:

FWIW
BG

 

[drurb]

It is pretty clear to a lot of us that you were being unnecesarilly smug and condescending.

"A lot us us?"

Several of us
felt that way about your posts

Several? Seems like a minority, who are basically nasty.

so you are either being a jerk or writing in such a way that it is easily mis-read as such.

Those are neither the only alternatives nor the ones which apply.

No, I have not been nice when I have responded to you, but I have also been clear about that fact as well.

Yes, I agree. You have been clear about not being nice. Your words convey that-- you didn't have to tell me.

 

[drurb]

DRURB,

I think we have the classic case of, "it's not what you said, but how you said it." I think you have some valid points, but the way they were presented is what offended some.

I'm sensitive to those issues. In this case we have one, perhaps two, boorish people who don't like my "fancy sentences." I went back through this entire thread. I'd ask you to do the same before you would pile on and accept this view. Where are these arrogant comments? Was it post #51 and #55?

It seems the contentiousness started right on #59 and #63 with mrpc.

Then we have the nasty out-of-line labeling by damonsmith on #79 and #83.

So ask yourself what it was that led jsbarber to say:
You have been consistently, thoughtful, respectful, and polite, and that is most important in having this type of dialogue.

I regret that mrpc and damonsmith developed the perceptions that they did. It is clear to me, however, that they manufactured controversy where there was none and that they were and are hell-bent on substituting their own notions of what I must mean for what I actually do mean and for what I actually said.

As with anything, YMMV. I find "warming up" very good for the sound and response of my bass. It isn't me, it is the bass that "wakes up." If you don't believe it, come stand next to me as it starts to shake more and more of the ground around me... I am not going to offer any explanation, but IME it does happen.

I do believe the effect occurs. I never said otherwise.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Gentlemen - please use the PM feature to sort this argument out. Bickering in the thread doesn't help the thread starter at all. I think we can summarize the situation by saying:

1) That many people believe that warming up the bass is a real phenomenon and that it's useful, among them some really accomplished professional players and teachers.

2) The scientific evidence to support the notion that basses "warm up" when played is either lacking or at the very least inconclusive.


Either way, nothing is resolved, and each person will have to decide for themselves. I would jump in front of a train to save my son. I believe that the reason for this is that I "love" my son. A scientist would likely say that my willingness to sacrifice my life is a result of genetic programming designed to keep the bloodline alive. Either way, it doesn't matter...I would still jump in front of a train to save my son. The rest is all semantics.

 

[Jeff Guevin]

I've thought DRURB was rude in other threads, but not this one--at most, "snippy" in response to being questioned. I was a little irritated at his repeated requirement for scientific experiments when, for god's sake, we're a bunch of bass players on a message board, but I don't think that's necessarily rude. But I guess the tone of the "conversation" here really isn't just about this thread, but other, more disastrous ones.

Can't we have a sticky thread entitled "Be pissed off at each other here"?

EDIT: Chris beat me to it, and did a better job, too.

 

[philip sirois]

I'm feelin the love! I think I'll go warm up my bass, whether it opens up or not.

 

[Stan Haskins]

I'm glad I stayed out of this one. Funny read, though!

I can say that in my subjective, unverifiable, unscientific opinion, I tried Brian's "warm up" method on my bass and found that, yes, it does work. The sound of my bass (less than one year old, carved) becomes noticeably more open louder, and more focused in amtter of minutes.

Additionally, long tones are a great way to focus yourself and your technique before you move on to other work. In my experience, when musicians, athletes, actors, or performers talk about "warming up", they don't mean anything about literally "raising temperature".

 

[philip sirois]

In my experience, when musicians, athletes, actors, or performers talk about "warming up", they don't mean anything about literally "raising temperature".

Come on now stan, don't get me started!