Watts vs Sound Level

[NightW0lf]

Have you tried raising the cab off the ground to get it to ear level or tilting it back? Just on the floor means that the backs of your knees get a great sound while your ears hear not a lot.

I will try moving back from the amp at our next jam, I will also try to tilt it up. It it strongly possible that I was too close from it. Though the other players have the same feedback as I have, and they were farther down the room... "It's enough, but barely"

 

[CL400Peavey]

You need a bigger gun....

This is what I currently use, and its war volume.

Link Removed

 

[Jim C]

I find the situation only gets worse if alcohol is involved.
The first set is good, the 2nd set is too loud, the 3rd set is no fun.

 

[will33]

Try repositioning both yourself AND the speaker in different spots around the room. Different distances from walls, etc. make different frequencies cancel out, making them hard to hear no matter how loud you turn up. 410's by design are very directional. A lot of the middle and upper frequencies you need to hear are hitting you in the knees. Try wedging something under the front of the cab to angle it up more at your ears.

I wouldn't go buying more gear just yet until you've heard this rig in a few different situations....may just have a "bad room"....it happens. That should be enough rig to carry a bar gig with a heavy handed drummer. It wouldn't hurt the rest of the band to turn down a little either, but that's no fun playing some Zep.

 

[tgriley62]

You need a bigger gun....

This is what I currently use, and its war volume.

Link Removed

What is this setup. I am a big fan of Peavey

 

[Dave W]

I will try moving back from the amp at our next jam, I will also try to tilt it up. It it strongly possible that I was too close from it. Though the other players have the same feedback as I have, and they were farther down the room... "It's enough, but barely"

Keep in mind that it's also firing right at your ankles/calves if it's sitting on the floor. Tilting it so it's shooting towards your ears will help.

 

[CL400Peavey]

What is this setup. I am a big fan of Peavey

Thats a Classic 400 and a Mark VIII XP on top of my fEARful 1515/66.

 

[kanonfodr]

You should be loud enough with your rig, my old metal band was LOUD (2 guitarists, 1 keyboardist w/ 2 keyboards, heavy-handed drummer, and a singer) and I cut through with my Fender Pro400 210 Combo and a Yorkville 115 pushing a little bit more wattage but I had a lot of room to keep pushing my setup if needed on both pre-amp gain and total volume.

OP did mention something about having his pre-amp gain into clipping. Perhaps he should back off and go for a cleaner sound? That normally helps mixing with distorted guitars playing loud.

Peace,
Greg

 

[Mushroo]

A compressor/limiter will help you get more usable volume (by smoothing out the peaks).

A good rule of thumb for wattage is 10x the guitarist.

Also you can ask the guitarists to turn down their bass knobs (more sonic real estate for you) and boot your own low mids.

 

[Dave W]

Also, what bass are you using and how are the controls on the amp set? Where are the filters set?

 

[hennessybass]

This I will try indeed. Do you think a bigger room may actually help the situation?

I think a bigger practice space makes it more comfortable for you guys,,, and might help as you are a little further apart from everyone else... Like if you have a little room to move, you don't have to be wedged in between a guitar amp and the drummer.

If you really have your master maxed, and the input gain is clipping, and all else is flat, you should be loud. There might be something wrong with your amp. If you can get in a Guitar Center or something, take your head, and try to compare to another one. Back in the day when I played in pretty loud bands, I always used a 4x10 with about 300ish watts. If you guys are really loud, then you might need more. Some bands are just really loud. You also might be pushing the amp too hard, which is causing some distortion and compression, which is actually making you sound more quiet. Try backing off a bit and going for that big clean sound.

Also, spend some time getting to know your rig, and how it sounds in different rooms and situations. And ask your Guitar players to turn down a little bit. Just say,, until I can get some money for more speakers, can you turn down, just at practice. If they are cool dudes, they will understand

I'm not a fan of the MarkBass stuff. Had a LMII for a while, and I though it was kind of soft, didn't cut through, and I didn't care for the eq - which I think made it hard to hear. Never got the sound I wanted. I know you have the $$ issue, but maybe try something else. Any buddies with bass gear,, borrow some for one practice? Maybe you can work up a trade, for a different head, or trade your 4x10 with some dude looking to downsize his 8x10 rig. There are ways around the money thing. Post for trades on here and on CL. Ya never know, and it won't hurt anything. Also, maybe think about adding something like a VT pedal or SABDDI. You might find a cheep used one, and it might change the sound more to your liking, and that might help you hear.

 

[hennessybass]

I find the situation only gets worse if alcohol is involved.
The first set is good, the 2nd set is too loud, the 3rd set is no fun.

When you drink, you actually start to loose hearing temporary in particular frequencies.

That's probably why when bands drink over a long night, they loose hearing those frequencies, and turn up to compensate,, and just end up getting louder and sloppier as the night goes on.
------
Conclusion
Alcohol specifically blunts lower frequencies affecting the mostly 1000 Hz, which is the most crucial frequency for speech discrimination. In conclusion alcohol does appear to affect auditory thresholds with some frequencies being more affected than others.

 

[Bassamatic]

Put the cab backed into a corner - you get a giant horn and a huge sound level increase. Lower the low bass EQ and turn up the hi bass and low mids - you will hear yourself better. Small rooms are always a problem probably due to sound cancellation.

More power will not solve your problem. Doubling your power actually gives you less than 1 dB level increase! (yeah I know it sounds crazy, but it is true) Better you do as above or add a second cabinet.

AND wear the earplugs or you will be forever sorry. Get some "musician's earplugs" that have flat response so you can hear properly.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Would changing the LittleMark III (providing 300 watts at 8 Ohms) for a LittleMark 800 (providing 500 watts at 8 Ohms) give louder volume output with the same cab

Assuming your cab can actually make use of the extra power, and it probably can't, the difference would be slight. Add a second identical cab.

Doubling your power actually gives you less than 1 dB level increase!

It gives 3dB, but only if the speakers have the available displacement to make use of it.

 

[NightW0lf]

I find the situation only gets worse if alcohol is involved.
The first set is good, the 2nd set is too loud, the 3rd set is no fun.

Absolutely no alcohol for me on jam nights... Plenty of water, sometimes coffee..

Try repositioning both yourself AND the speaker in different spots around the room. Different distances from walls, etc. make different frequencies cancel out, making them hard to hear no matter how loud you turn up. 410's by design are very directional. A lot of the middle and upper frequencies you need to hear are hitting you in the knees. Try wedging something under the front of the cab to angle it up more at your ears.

I wouldn't go buying more gear just yet until you've heard this rig in a few different situations....may just have a "bad room"....it happens. That should be enough rig to carry a bar gig with a heavy handed drummer. It wouldn't hurt the rest of the band to turn down a little either, but that's no fun playing some Zep.

I will play around the room next time indeed, try different amp positions.. Will let you know if I find something that works better !

Keep in mind that it's also firing right at your ankles/calves if it's sitting on the floor. Tilting it so it's shooting towards your ears will help.

The cabinet is elevated at about abdomen level, but it was very close to me, I will move it around to see if I can get better sound output somewhere else.

A compressor/limiter will help you get more usable volume (by smoothing out the peaks).

A good rule of thumb for wattage is 10x the guitarist.

Also you can ask the guitarists to turn down their bass knobs (more sonic real estate for you) and boot your own low mids.

10x Ouch! I would need a 1200W rig ! I don't wanna think about bringing that up and down the stairs by myself
I will ask them about their bass knobs, it's worth a try Thanks!

Also, what bass are you using and how are the controls on the amp set? Where are the filters set?

I have at the moment a Yamaha RBX170, the controls for the EQ/Filters change depending on the song/sound I want to have at that moment. I also use a Boss ME-50B pedal set for effect. I use compression, limiter, reverb, sometimes some distortion...

I think a bigger practice space makes it more comfortable for you guys,,, and might help as you are a little further apart from everyone else... Like if you have a little room to move, you don't have to be wedged in between a guitar amp and the drummer.

If you really have your master maxed, and the input gain is clipping, and all else is flat, you should be loud. There might be something wrong with your amp. If you can get in a Guitar Center or something, take your head, and try to compare to another one. Back in the day when I played in pretty loud bands, I always used a 4x10 with about 300ish watts. If you guys are really loud, then you might need more. Some bands are just really loud. You also might be pushing the amp too hard, which is causing some distortion and compression, which is actually making you sound more quiet. Try backing off a bit and going for that big clean sound.

Also, spend some time getting to know your rig, and how it sounds in different rooms and situations. And ask your Guitar players to turn down a little bit. Just say,, until I can get some money for more speakers, can you turn down, just at practice. If they are cool dudes, they will understand

I'm not a fan of the MarkBass stuff. Had a LMII for a while, and I though it was kind of soft, didn't cut through, and I didn't care for the eq - which I think made it hard to hear. Never got the sound I wanted. I know you have the $$ issue, but maybe try something else. Any buddies with bass gear,, borrow some for one practice? Maybe you can work up a trade, for a different head, or trade your 4x10 with some dude looking to downsize his 8x10 rig. There are ways around the money thing. Post for trades on here and on CL. Ya never know, and it won't hurt anything. Also, maybe think about adding something like a VT pedal or SABDDI. You might find a cheep used one, and it might change the sound more to your liking, and that might help you hear.

I'm located in Laval (Quebec, Canada) No Guitar Center in the area. I hat to special order the rig, there are no stores with that kind of equipment in stock over here I had heard the same rig and loved the sound of it. Combined with my limited storage space and the very light weight of the whole thing made it a "best option" rig for me.

I do use a Boss ME-50B pedal set. No VT though...

Put the cab backed into a corner - you get a giant horn and a huge sound level increase. Lower the low bass EQ and turn up the hi bass and low mids - you will hear yourself better. Small rooms are always a problem probably due to sound cancellation.

More power will not solve your problem. Doubling your power actually gives you less than 1 dB level increase! (yeah I know it sounds crazy, but it is true) Better you do as above or add a second cabinet.

AND wear the earplugs or you will be forever sorry. Get some "musician's earplugs" that have flat response so you can hear properly.

Great tip, I will definitely try placing in the far corner, behind the drums maybe, I'll let you know how much it helped

Musician's Earplugs? Really? Will try to find that ! I tried "regular" earplugs but it just made everything sound bad. I never though they made some specially for that, I'll keep an eye out (or an ear )


Thanks all for your help !

 

[Dave W]

the controls for the EQ/Filters change depending on the song/sound I want to have at that moment.

Can you give an example of how they are set? It's very possible that it's inhibiting you rather than helping you.

You're completely tweaking the amp for every song, and nothing is consistent?

 

[CL400Peavey]

Can you give an example of how they are set? It's very possible that it's inhibiting you rather than helping you.

You're completely tweaking the amp for every song, and nothing is consistent?

This

 

[NightW0lf]

Can you give an example of how they are set? It's very possible that it's inhibiting you rather than helping you.

You're completely tweaking the amp for every song, and nothing is consistent?

I do tweak it a lot, but let's try one here : the "master' section of the Boss pedal has a 4 knob EQ and they are all at 12o'clock, no change here. I do not have a graphic 12 slide EQ, just the 4 knobs on the amp itself (and the 2 effect knobs of the LMIII).

For an ACDC song, I would have the "Low" and "High" knobs would be at max and the "MidLow" and MidHigh" ones at 10 o'clock.

For a Rage song, I would boost the Mids to 3 o'clock and bring down the Low at 11 or 12 o'clock..

What would be best in your opinion?

 

[CL400Peavey]

I do tweak it a lot, but let's try one here : the "master' section of the Boss pedal has a 4 knob EQ and they are all at 12o'clock, no change here. I do not have a graphic 12 slide EQ, just the 4 knobs on the amp itself (and the 2 effect knobs of the LMIII).

For an ACDC song, I would have the "Low" and "High" knobs would be at max and the "MidLow" and MidHigh" ones at 10 o'clock.

For a Rage song, I would boost the Mids to 3 o'clock and bring down the Low at 11 or 12 o'clock..

What would be best in your opinion?

Have you tried playing with out the pedal? Straight into the head? Also are you running the the pedal into your effects loop or the regular input of the head?

Try plugging straight into the head, no effects on at all. Set all the EQ knobs to noon. Bring your volume up slowly and see how loud things get. I suspect the signal from your boss pedal is weak.

 

[NightW0lf]

Have you tried playing with out the pedal? Straight into the head? Also are you running the the pedal into your effects loop or the regular input of the head?

Try plugging straight into the head, no effects on at all. Set all the EQ knobs to noon. Bring your volume up slowly and see how loud things get. I suspect the signal from your boss pedal is weak.

I use the regular Input on the front of the Amp. I will try without the pedal next time, see if it could be the issue. Though I can say that it never caused me trouble before. We have rented jam rooms before with amps already in place and it was fine. But they did have a 8x10 with a 1200 watts tube amp... Kinda heavy on the back, but hella nice sound (this would nevef fit in my trunk)