I'll try this over the weekend and post back here. Thanks for the idea and the support.
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I'll try this over the weekend and post back here. Thanks for the idea and the support.
Yeah, well, I wouldn't normally choose GHS Bass Boomers for the fretless. Long story short, I bought the fretless some years ago, and the strings that came on it were still good (but I never figured out what brand or model they were). Then in 2014 (yes, 4 years ago) I bought a set of Elixir and a set of GHS Bass Boomers (what I used to use previously on my fretted bass). I eventually put the Elixir on my fretted bass, and the GHS set was left over. And only now did I decide to change the strings on the fretless. So the GHS went on the fretless.
So it could be a strings and magnets issue. But, this issue shouldn't happen at all, regardless of strings or magnets. I've never seen this in 25 years playing the bass.
TKs
Minor update: I left the bass with a local luthier, which also had another luthier look at it. They're both renowned luthiers, but both are currently scratching their heads... But one thinks it's to do with the pickups.
Fingers crossed.
Incidentally, I think I'll also post this to Ibanez...
Fingers crossed.
Incidentally, I think I'll also post this to Ibanez...
Twisted strings are my guess too. I've had this exact same thing happen. Usually caused by manually wrapping the string around the tuner post instead of using the key to wind it on. That procedure can twist the string and loosen the windings of the string around it's core which makes it like two strings instead of one. Release tension, remove string and reinstall. Keep a slight tension on the string and keep it a straight shot to the tuner post. Then using a winder to bring it up to tension. Most times this totally solves the issue. BUT there's always a but. Sometimes the windings are totally broken away from the core and it still sounds bad or just not as bad. In that case new strings period.
The magnets pull the string and therefore affect the string vibrations whether the instrument is plugged in or not. It is simply the magnetic pull of the magnets affecting the strings' vibrations, that's a purely physical process. So hearing it even while unplugged supports it being "Stratt-itis".
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 368008
Guest
They ought to spot it in a heartbeat. If two of them are left stumped, we can't probably provide you with more ideas. Are your strings tapered?
Cause if the full thickness section of the strings starts too far in along the strings speaking length, you'll get wawerving, standing inharmonics. If you have the possibility to retract the ball end with washers, nuts so the full gauge of the string starts BEHIND the witness point of the bridge saddle, chances are that you've mitigated it somewhat. you said it was mostly low strings. Tapered occurs mostly on low E and low B's only.
question 2:
Any chance that your strings may be of the round core type? Is impossible to see if you don't know it beforehand. If they "unravel" ever so slightly among the strings length the idiosyncrasies starts to show up in abundance. Hex core keeps the wraps in place.
Mickets. Did you ever find out why you had the weird harmonics issue? I have the exact same thing and it’s frustrating that I can’t fix it.
Lots of excellent replies to this thread from everyone.
I have experienced this issue on an instrument (not my own) before, but it was so many decades ago, that I can’t remember now how it was fixed.
But will try so here are just a few thoughts.
When problem solving, it’s helpful to determine whether the issue is simple or complex at a very early stage.
I do wonder whether the difficulties eliminating this issue is because the problem is actually caused by a number of quite different factors, interacting together simultaneously.
Therefore, it may be necessary to approach the issue with a view to regulating a number of differing elements that require adjustment or even replacement to fully resolve the problem.
In short, complex problems usually require complex solutions.
I did wonder whether the action is on the low side for a fretless bass?
Its not uncommon for players to desire a lower action than is ideal for the calibre of instrument.
Could the combination of a low action and high-power magnetic pickups be interacting together deleteriously?
So, raising the action and lowering the pickups quite drastically to real extremes would be my first adjustment, purely to make an observation about.
If those dual adjustments eliminated or massively reduced the issue then its possible you might need to come to terms with adjusting yourself to a higher action, more typical of double basses, and perhaps rather less aggressive magnetic field pickups as replacements might be necessary, to completely remove the issue altogether.
Test, Try and Prove.
As the issue is more evident the higher up the neck you play, it is more likely the pickups will interfere as the string is vibrating closer to its pole pieces.
You are striking the string sideways but too strong a magnetic pull may be inducing an additional directionality to its movement creating an unusual sonic artefact.
Seymour Duncan What is "Strat-itis"? - Guitar Pickups, Bass Pickups, Pedals
What is "Stratitis"? (sweetwater.com)
Just..
Check that the saddles are not flat and indeed the nut grooves, and put some foam or wad of cloth behind the nut for good measure to eliminate their vibrations.
The string must rest on points, any flatness can cause unwanted phasey sounding buzzes.
Contra wise, too deeply notched saddles (or nuts) can be home to similar phasey sounding issues.
String interference, where behind the nut, the end of one string sticking out from its tuner, touches another string as it passes can cause issues.
It’s unlikely if you have the problem on all strings, but easy to look for and eliminate.
Likewise at the other end, look for securely seated string balls.
Is the neck adjusted correctly?
It’s been tightened so as its settled is there any kind of back bow that is causing the string behind where you are fingering to sympathetically vibrate and create a doppler type of phasey effect?
I think that’s highly likely and in combination with too low an action and too strong magnetic pickups, might actually be it.
Please don’t imagine I’m trying to be controversial here, I’m not looking for an argument, just exploring ideas.
When I started in the music business (a very long time ago) the widely accepted conventional wisdom was to look for a completely straight neck in a stringed instrument.
Over the years the widely accepted conventional wisdom has altered (but not for everyone, including very esteemed individuals both luthiers and players) and in general, people like prefer to have a degree of relief.
Whatever you think its o.k. with me!
Anyway, a few months ago I was thinking about all this and rang up a relative of mine who is a violin maker and repairman, often sought out to work on very high-end instruments, Stradivari etc.
I was wondering how he approached the subject of straight versus relief, on such fretless instruments.
I thought I might learn something, and did.
He explained the ebony fingerboard is set straight and then he planes (and has special little planes set up to do this) ½ a mm of relief on the treble side to ¾ of a mm on the bass side.
If he introduces such relief of the violin family instruments (and works on Basses Cellos, Violas etc.) then it’s probably genuinely important to have a proper degree of relief on fretless basses in particular.
Although the luthiers that you are dealing with might be experts at fixing fretted instruments and their problems, its highly likely they are far, far less familiar and experienced with fretless instruments, and completely unacquainted with the issues that can occur with them.
In short, the tightened neck might require better relief, and this could help eliminate phasey effects from behind the fingered point too.
So, a properly sorted neck, in combination with a higher action, and lowered or replaced pickups, as long as there are no issues with the saddles or nut affecting the strings vibrations could be the way to eliminate this issue.
If the new strings are worse, this may be to the normal brilliance resulting from their newness. Are you boosting treble on the bass or amp which could be exacerbating the effect, which the newness of the replacement strings also boosted?
You are highly sensitised to the effect now, so give your ears a break, and try a flat E.Q. to start with when you play and see how you go. I will be surprised if the problem is not two or three of the possibilities mentioned, possibly more, interacting together to create the unwanted effect.
I have experienced this issue on an instrument (not my own) before, but it was so many decades ago, that I can’t remember now how it was fixed.
But will try so here are just a few thoughts.
When problem solving, it’s helpful to determine whether the issue is simple or complex at a very early stage.
I do wonder whether the difficulties eliminating this issue is because the problem is actually caused by a number of quite different factors, interacting together simultaneously.
Therefore, it may be necessary to approach the issue with a view to regulating a number of differing elements that require adjustment or even replacement to fully resolve the problem.
In short, complex problems usually require complex solutions.
I did wonder whether the action is on the low side for a fretless bass?
Its not uncommon for players to desire a lower action than is ideal for the calibre of instrument.
Could the combination of a low action and high-power magnetic pickups be interacting together deleteriously?
So, raising the action and lowering the pickups quite drastically to real extremes would be my first adjustment, purely to make an observation about.
If those dual adjustments eliminated or massively reduced the issue then its possible you might need to come to terms with adjusting yourself to a higher action, more typical of double basses, and perhaps rather less aggressive magnetic field pickups as replacements might be necessary, to completely remove the issue altogether.
Test, Try and Prove.
As the issue is more evident the higher up the neck you play, it is more likely the pickups will interfere as the string is vibrating closer to its pole pieces.
You are striking the string sideways but too strong a magnetic pull may be inducing an additional directionality to its movement creating an unusual sonic artefact.
Seymour Duncan What is "Strat-itis"? - Guitar Pickups, Bass Pickups, Pedals
What is "Stratitis"? (sweetwater.com)
Just..
Check that the saddles are not flat and indeed the nut grooves, and put some foam or wad of cloth behind the nut for good measure to eliminate their vibrations.
The string must rest on points, any flatness can cause unwanted phasey sounding buzzes.
Contra wise, too deeply notched saddles (or nuts) can be home to similar phasey sounding issues.
String interference, where behind the nut, the end of one string sticking out from its tuner, touches another string as it passes can cause issues.
It’s unlikely if you have the problem on all strings, but easy to look for and eliminate.
Likewise at the other end, look for securely seated string balls.
Is the neck adjusted correctly?
It’s been tightened so as its settled is there any kind of back bow that is causing the string behind where you are fingering to sympathetically vibrate and create a doppler type of phasey effect?
I think that’s highly likely and in combination with too low an action and too strong magnetic pickups, might actually be it.
Please don’t imagine I’m trying to be controversial here, I’m not looking for an argument, just exploring ideas.
When I started in the music business (a very long time ago) the widely accepted conventional wisdom was to look for a completely straight neck in a stringed instrument.
Over the years the widely accepted conventional wisdom has altered (but not for everyone, including very esteemed individuals both luthiers and players) and in general, people like prefer to have a degree of relief.
Whatever you think its o.k. with me!
Anyway, a few months ago I was thinking about all this and rang up a relative of mine who is a violin maker and repairman, often sought out to work on very high-end instruments, Stradivari etc.
I was wondering how he approached the subject of straight versus relief, on such fretless instruments.
I thought I might learn something, and did.
He explained the ebony fingerboard is set straight and then he planes (and has special little planes set up to do this) ½ a mm of relief on the treble side to ¾ of a mm on the bass side.
If he introduces such relief of the violin family instruments (and works on Basses Cellos, Violas etc.) then it’s probably genuinely important to have a proper degree of relief on fretless basses in particular.
Although the luthiers that you are dealing with might be experts at fixing fretted instruments and their problems, its highly likely they are far, far less familiar and experienced with fretless instruments, and completely unacquainted with the issues that can occur with them.
In short, the tightened neck might require better relief, and this could help eliminate phasey effects from behind the fingered point too.
So, a properly sorted neck, in combination with a higher action, and lowered or replaced pickups, as long as there are no issues with the saddles or nut affecting the strings vibrations could be the way to eliminate this issue.
If the new strings are worse, this may be to the normal brilliance resulting from their newness. Are you boosting treble on the bass or amp which could be exacerbating the effect, which the newness of the replacement strings also boosted?
You are highly sensitised to the effect now, so give your ears a break, and try a flat E.Q. to start with when you play and see how you go. I will be surprised if the problem is not two or three of the possibilities mentioned, possibly more, interacting together to create the unwanted effect.
Take the string off and reinstall it WITHOUT manually wrapping the string around the post by hand. Keep slight tension on it and keep it straight and let the tuner wind it up The windings get loose on the string when manually wrapped and twisted around the post and that's what causes that sound. If that doesn't work, the string is probably damaged. Sometimes the pup needs lowered a bit too but i believe the windings are loose as I described. Let us know what you find out.
D
Deleted member 368008
Guest
I think what on earth the nut has to do with this as it is fretted at up the neck. You should - instead - borrow a capo from your guitarist friend or buy one yourself. Then you eliminate everything with the nut. If it's the nut, then it would sound on open strings too, as well as fretting down low. Since it occurs when you fret high up and gets worse even when you fret higher, the distance to the nut is longer and wont have any effect then. Then it would be most effect at fretting at the lowest frets, not up high. As you fret higher up, the higher up you fret the closer the string comes to the pole pieces of the pickups.
It is as posted, very much a combination of things. It can be even so severe (but the luthiers should've detected this at the spot) that the fretboard has loosened from its glue underneath. My take, well, is still MSP from the pickups. The bridge saddle slots may not be filed properly and the strings reside on a too thin edge kind of resting point. It needs to be quite big and firm, and taper off in a good way behind the strings witness point. Make sure that angle behind the saddle bridge aren't too shallow either.
But now it has gone 2 years, and we haven't heard anything from you @Mickets . As your nick doesn't resolve n here anymore when typing @ in the front of it one wonders if you're still around here. I think all of us are pretty curious of what was the solution to the problem.
It's a unwieldy process, but first one has to rule things out:
1. Remove the pickups altogether if possible, un-solder them off from all electronics and put them far aside. Can you still hear the problem acoustically? When leaning in with your ear to the body?
2. Use capo method. Put the capo on the spot where you fret it. Still there?
3. Take all other strings off, except the one that has the worst problem. Tune it slowly up but stop at certain spots before you reach its supposed pitch. Does the error follows the SOUNDING PITCH, or the SPOT ON THE NECK? I e that it wobbles and sound 2-notes higher up when you have not tuned up quite to pitch, which means that it is occuring at the same pitch but when fretted higher up?
Or is it occuring then, at the same SPOT on the fretboard but at a different pitch due to that the strings isn't tuned up to concert pitch yet?
It is as posted, very much a combination of things. It can be even so severe (but the luthiers should've detected this at the spot) that the fretboard has loosened from its glue underneath. My take, well, is still MSP from the pickups. The bridge saddle slots may not be filed properly and the strings reside on a too thin edge kind of resting point. It needs to be quite big and firm, and taper off in a good way behind the strings witness point. Make sure that angle behind the saddle bridge aren't too shallow either.
But now it has gone 2 years, and we haven't heard anything from you @Mickets . As your nick doesn't resolve n here anymore when typing @ in the front of it one wonders if you're still around here. I think all of us are pretty curious of what was the solution to the problem.
It's a unwieldy process, but first one has to rule things out:
1. Remove the pickups altogether if possible, un-solder them off from all electronics and put them far aside. Can you still hear the problem acoustically? When leaning in with your ear to the body?
2. Use capo method. Put the capo on the spot where you fret it. Still there?
3. Take all other strings off, except the one that has the worst problem. Tune it slowly up but stop at certain spots before you reach its supposed pitch. Does the error follows the SOUNDING PITCH, or the SPOT ON THE NECK? I e that it wobbles and sound 2-notes higher up when you have not tuned up quite to pitch, which means that it is occuring at the same pitch but when fretted higher up?
Or is it occuring then, at the same SPOT on the fretboard but at a different pitch due to that the strings isn't tuned up to concert pitch yet?
