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Double Bass WereWolf? ThereWolf!

Don Kasper

Don Kasper

Gold Supporting Member
Dec 30, 2012
7,609
14,500
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Los Angeles/Burbank, CA
#1
This is a good demonstration of using a Wolftone eliminator - the Brass/Afterlength type.

Thing One - Note the location on the cello (near the Octave of the G String) - This area seems to be a problem area on Double Basses, (near the Octave of the A string), in my experience. (Hmmmm....Coincidence? I think NOT.)

Thing Two - note how the placement on the afterlength is an important variable in using the Wolftone eliminator - even a slight adjustment can make a significant difference.

Thing Three - I've yet to hear a coherent, (Joe Sixpack-able) explanation as to what causes a Wolftone.
(although "...I know it when I hear it...")
Thanks.

 
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#2
Effin' Magnets! How Do They Work?
This Wolftone Eliminator seems to address the problem from a different perspective - by damping a (very) specific area (node?) of the top plate?
(Note the same string and general area of the problem note. Hmmm....)
 
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#3
Don Kasper said:
Effin' Magnets! How Do They Work?
This Wolftone Eliminator seems to address the problem from a different perspective - by damping a (very) specific area (node?) of the top plate?
(Note the same string and general area of the problem note. Hmmm....)
Click to expand...



I will be getting one of these to try tomorrow on my rather wolfy bass, so I'll check back with my experiences.
My understanding is that it is a magnetic pendulum that is held on the top by more magnets. I've got a minefield of cleats on the inside of my top, so I'll be interested to see how it slides over those.
 
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#4
Jon Stefaniak said:
I will be getting one of these to try tomorrow on my rather wolfy bass, so I'll check back with my experiences.
My understanding is that it is a magnetic pendulum that is held on the top by more magnets. I've got a minefield of cleats on the inside of my top, so I'll be interested to see how it slides over those.
Click to expand...
Thanks for "taking one for the team."
Seriously - Let us know if/how this works on a DB. Also - just curious - what is the location(s) of your WT's? (anywhere near the A string, near the Octave harmonic?)
 
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#5
Don Kasper said:
Thanks for "taking one for the team."
Seriously - Let us know if/how this works on a DB. Also - just curious - what is the location(s) of your WT's? (anywhere near the A string, near the Octave harmonic?)
Click to expand...

I don't know about one for the team, my bass is really wolfy.
Aflat is the most offensive both on the A string and the D.
G, Aflat and A all buzz against the board because of sympathetic vibrations - even if I bow sideways, it's hard to avoid buzzing those notes.
There are some other notes that sound really full - I'd hate to take too much away from them. Evenness is not the strong point of this instrument
 
#6
I think I'll check back in on this thread with some observations so far.

I haven't really found the perfect, magical spot, but I will say that it is capable of killing wolfs. It is not a miracle cure, but not bad! There is a slight reduction of the bite but also a more even, free vibration and smoothing out of the wolfy vibrations. Different spots have different effects - I am getting better results lower down.

Don, you're into DIYing bass stuff, right? I would be interested to find out how magnets by themselves, without the pendulum, would compare to this wolf killer. I had no previous experience with Neodymium magnets, but I can say they are pretty awesome, and absolutely not toys. They snap together with a pretty frightening amount of force - I'd hate to see someone stab their bass when their steel endpin jumps to the magnet. They also slide right over the cleats (they don't make if over the bass bar though, oops)
I know there are other magnet wolf killers that don't have any pendulum - you could make one easily without it costing an arm or a leg. Just glue some felt to the back. You could add or remove magnets to change the mass... Might be worth a try.

Aside from the wolf killer, I'd like to add tgat my bass is a little unusual in that there are a lot of vibrations fighting in the body. This makes the bass powerful, but also tight and wolfy/uneven. One thing I found that really opens it up and improves the sound is playing it in a big room, loud and with the endpin spike in the ground. Playing in a small room keeps all the fighting vibrations in the body of the bass, and exacerbates the wolves. I brought it to orchestra rehearsal recently and played it loud on stage in a way I can't do at home. This really opened up something - maybe I vibrated some tension out of the top, I don't know. But If you are struggling with a wolf, getting the vibrations out of the instrument and into the floor and air can effect the sound about as much as the wolf killer.
 
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#7
Jon,
Interesting.
1. You used the term "pendulum" - is there a moving part(s) in the tube portion of the device? I couldn't tell from the video. It looks like it is a "piston" that is free to travel the length of the clear tube(?) Can you describe that part a bit more?
2. Do you think that the device was designed for 'cello-sized Wolfs? Might a larger device, sized for bass, yield better results? I didn't see a bass-sized version available. ("Size Matters"?)
3. How did you get a hold of this so quickly? ('cello section dealer?)
4. Do you know the approx. cost of this gizmo?
5. I am a bit of a tinkerer/Fool, and this topic fascinates me, but my bass is now Wolf-free in the past 15 years or so, after a new soundpost + position adjustment. I don't have a "sick patient" to experiment on, unfortunately.
I wonder if any of the Pro Luthiers here have had any quantifiable experiences in this area, and if they approach it as a "set-up" or an "add-a-gizmo" type problem, or both?
Thanks.
 
#9
bassmanbrent said:
Is this what you're looking at? There's a bass version there...

Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

There is only a Wolf Eliminator for 'cello, not bass.
There are "Modulator(s)" for vln., vla., 'cello, or bass.
These appear to be 2 different products.
I wonder if a larger size would be more effective for DB Wolfs/Wolves?
Thanks for the link.
 
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#12
In looking at this gizmo for awhile, I wonder if it functions similar to a shock absorber?
It looks like a piston within a cylinder, and by (finding and) placing it on the top plate at the resonant point (node) of the problem frequency, it vibrates within the cylinder and absorbs (most?) of the energy. Maybe a wolftone is a resonant frequency of the top plate CLOSE TO, but not EXACTLY the frequency of the fundamental note being produced by the string? If a second note/top plate frequency is far enough away from the fundamental frequency, is is NO Problem - it is just an "Interval" - but, if it is too CLOSE to the fundamental frequency, it "fights", and creates severe "beats"?
I wonder if Pianos have wolftones, or if the stiffness of the soundboard design eliminates any chance of their occurring?
I wonder if Beat Poet(!!!!) Allen Ginsberg had anything to recite on this topic?
Sorry. Very Sorry for that one.
Just spitball-in' here.
 
#13
I'm still having trouble with my "wolf tone," if indeed it is a wolf tone. I only really notice it when I use an amp. I have the old Gage copper foil pickup. The Ab, A, Bb ( it seems to change ) booms out through the amp. I can't really notice it with the open A. I wish I could find my old D'Armand to compare. Any suggestions? ( Other than that :)
Should I try it with one of my wife's microphones?
How does one determine which after length gets the eliminator? For me, just the A string? The WT sounds on the A and D strings.
 
#14
Gerry,
FYI - I BRIEFLY tried the Gage Copper Foil Realist a long time ago and found it unusable, due to hot/cold notes.
The (true?) wolftone should be present acoustically. (Playing Fortissimo with the bow, is the acid-test.) If not, then I think that something in your signal chain - (bass), pickup, amp, speaker, room, proximity to your speaker, etc., is creating this wolf-like tone.
If possible, try an Underwood pickup, mounting only ONE element on the E side wing. The Underwood is (in my experience) one of the flattest-sounding pickups. It compresses the overall signal, IME. This is also a fair criticism of it's sound, as well.
This may be a workable cheap experiment to try and isolate the origin of your problem.
Thanks.
EDIT : I believe each string would require its own eliminator. You might need to futz with each to find the optimum location on the afterlength.
Thanks.
 
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#15
Yeah, it says Modulator, not wolf eliminator . But it looks to be is the same thing as the one for cello. Maybe they made the cello one first, and then changed their approach to marketing it, don't know.

There was a shop (in Japan) showing off their new product on Facebook, so I contacted them and they sent it. It is just a coincidence that I saw your post AFTER I ordered it. You can buy it on Krentz's site for $160.
As far as parts goes, this is way overpriced for a few magnets in a plastic tube, but it works, and much easier than a lot of fiddling with sound posts and bridges. Also, easily reversible if you don't like the result.
Like I said, I suspect you might get some positive results with felt covered magnets alone. That might cost just $10-15.
 
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#16
Jon.
Thanks.
Can you describe the "plastic tube" portion? Is there some reason that this half of the gizmo is encased in a plastic tube?
Does it look like anything moves inside the tube? Or are the contents fixed/stationary? (I see some kind of foam-like material at each end(?), which might allow that magnet to move within the tube.)
Thanks.
 
#17
To be honest, I am not sure why I was calling it a pendulum... I think I misread it once, and after that, replaced the word piston with pendulum in my mind. Hmm.

Anyway, it is a plastic tube (edit: a very hard plastic with a high pitch sound , a little like glass). On one end, there is a thin magnet with a cusion material in case it falls. In the middle, there are free floating magnets with cusion material on both ends that touches the walls of the tube. Capping off the the other end of the tube is a much larger magnet with a felt cusion on it. This is the side that touches the inside of the bass's top.
Then there is a fourth and final magnet covered in black plastic with felt on one side that slides and positions the whole thing from the outside.
Nothing seems to move around if I shake the tube. (Edit: they do move around but only a little. It is like a shock absorber.) they aren't fixed in there - like I said, I'm skeptical of the whole thing despite the fact that it works well. I'm sure I could make one that works just as well for a lot less.
If someone made a diy version and put the instructions online, would that be patent infringement?
Maybe a version with just a magnet, but you can add the piston part as needed. The magnet that goes on the outside could have a real wood outer shell...
DSC_2830.JPG
 
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#18
Thanks, Jon.
I can't figure out what the piston is made of, why it is able to move within the tube, or what it "does" -
1. If it is ferrous metal it should be heavily attracted to the primary magnets (at the left in your excellent photo).
2. If it is non-ferrous, it would be very lightweight and would just float randomly in the tube - if so, what does that accomplish?
3. I can't tell if the other end of the tube (the right-hand end in your photo) is another magnet, or not.
4. Is there some kind of "reverse polarity" between the two ends of the tube that is suspending the piston? (I may have had too much coffee today!!)

If just attaching weight or mass to the top plate, (to dampen a vibration), was the intended function, you could simply purchase 2 magnets and accomplish the same thing without the "tube and piston".
I priced these types of magnets online, and there is maybe $30 MAX in actual magnet cost in this gizmo, IMO.
"$160.00"??
There is something else at work here. (But, it does seem to work. I don't mean to discredit the inventor.)
Thanks.
 
#20
Steven Ayres said:
It looks to me that the magnet inside the piston is suspended between the end magnets by repulsive force, is that right? So my take would be that it absorbs some vibration through the magnetic field, without physical contact. Trick!
Click to expand...

Yes, that is how it works. If I flip the loose magnet around, and attach it to the opposite end, the free floating magnets will move slightly toward the middle. When I take them away again, it goes back.
 
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