What am I doing wrong DI'ing into the PA?

[HeadWind]

My main band has a really nice PA system and my bass sounds great coming out of the JBL PRX735 powered mains. I use an Aguilar Tone Hammer pre-amp/DI and send the signal pre-EQ to our Carvin C1648 mixer via an XLR cable. My guitarist, who does the mixing, says he always has turn the input gain almost to zero because the signal is so hot. I always wondered about that but didn't think too much about it.

I did a gig with another band I play with last night and DI'd into the band's mixer which was sending the mixed signal to the house PA. Even though we tried everything out before hand, when I got to the gig my sound was distorted as soon as the mixer owner moved the input gain off of zero. I brought my Hartke kickback amp as a backup and tried its DI and the same thing happened. I ended up plugging straight into the mixer and playing with no stage monitoring, but it was OK since the house mains were above and behind us (complicated story).

For tonight's gig, I am going to try to run an XLR-TS cable into our mixer and see how it goes.

But my question remains: why does it seem that the signal coming out of both these DI's is so hot? I understand the differences between Line level and instrument level (and even lower powered mic level). And it is no secret that the balanced out from the TH is hot. From [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]:

¼” output level: 4VRMS maximum
XLR output level: 8VRMS maximum balanced

So the balanced output is even higher than the ¼” output which I send to my power amp.

I guess I am missing something. Why don't either of the DIs I used (TH and the kickback's DI) send a balanced signal at the voltage that mixers are looking for in the XLR-in jacks?. Is it just that the mixers that I am experiencing are limited to taking only instrument/line level signals? Do other mixers have the ability to select?

As I said, I will try using an XLR-to-TS conversion cable tonight so I can plug it into the mixer's line level ¼” jack. But is this normally required?

 

[eJake]

Is your bass active? I am not the most knowledgeable about no amp DI gigs but I think you can buy DIs with limiters to reduce your input volume.

 

[HeadWind]

No, passive basses.

Not looking to buy a new DI. Love the Tone Hammer.

And to be clear, I want the amp. It was just last night I had to play without the amp because I had to plug my bass directly into the mixer.

 

[EastCoastThump]

Tone Hammer DI Output (TB thread, April 2013)

Dave Boonshoft (Mr. Aguilar) answers this on page #2:

The pre-eq xlr output is a hotter than some others on the market. It puts out -20dBu. We did this so that you could have the best possible signal to noise ratio coming out of the mixing board. On many cheaper boards you'll have a fair amount of hiss and noise once you move the fader above the "comfort zone". Mackie used to put an actual indent on the fader travel so you would be aware of that. The other reason to go hotter is that not everybody has a bass that is putting out -10 or more. A passive P-bass can be considerably less that that, and you want a nice signal going into the board. I can't see how you could not be able to use a -20 dBu output unless the engineer doesn't want to use the trim pots going into the fader, or he doesn't want to use the -20 pad. I think some engineer's have set their controls up for countryman d.i.'s, and don't want to adjust anything. For the record, the standard countryman puts out -32dBu. If you are concerned going into a gig, tell the soundman to adjust the trim pot on board to compensate for an additional 10 db of gain. It should be simple, and you'll have a nice clean signal. —DB ​

Among the TB suggested work-arounds: go out the 1/4" out to a DI, or set for post-eq (which brings the gain setting back into the DI signal), and dial back the gain. Ideally, though, just use the pad or trim at the mixer.

 

[hbabels]

If your mixer has an input pad You might try that. If it doesn't you could try getting an in line XLR pad. I've used these with hot DI signals and it works great with no tone change.
They cost between $20-$40 and some have adjustable pad amounts

 

[Downunderwonder]

Ya. Someone doesn't know what the pad button does.

 

[monkeyland]

Sounds to me like these guys need better mixers. You can also help yourself out by adding an inline pad to your gig bag for when it's needed.

 

[73jbass]

Turn the master knob on the preamp down?

 

[monkeyland]

Turn the master knob on the preamp down?

He stated that it was all the way down on both mixers, yet still a problem.

Some (lesser) mixers have a more narrow range of signal that they can work with before encountering distortion or getting noisey. I've not used that exact Carvin mixer but their reputation precedes them, and it doesn't have a pad built in which would suggest that you should bring your own if thats what is needed to make it work well.

 

[73jbass]

Phantom power?

 

[monkeyland]

Phantom power?

Has no effect on signal strength

 

[74hc]

Your guitar player has nefarious intentions, and is turning down the bass to unhearable levels on purpose. Fire him, and the drummer while you're at it!

 

[ArtechnikA]

The DarkGlass DI's are also notoriously hot.
My SoundCraft mixer can handle it, but my Scarlet interface is easily swamped, even using the 'Line' selection.
I bought a 20 dB inline pad and everyone's life is better.
This one: Whirlwind IMP Pad - 20 dB
Get a short XLR cable to use as a pigtail so you don't have a rigid thing cantilevered on a hard connection.

The ToneHammer and DarkGlass pedals are preamps, capable of driving power amps all by themselves.
That signal level can overwhelm a Mic preamp.
If you have a 'Pad' or 'Line' selection, use it, but a 20 or 30 dB pad is $20 well spent and a good addition to your gig bag if you're ever going direct.

 

[s0c9]

The ToneHammer and DarkGlass pedals are preamps, capable of driving power amps all by themselves.
That signal level can overwhelm a Mic preamp.
If you have a 'Pad' or 'Line' selection, use it, but a 20 or 30 dB pad is $20 well spent and a good addition to your gig bag if you're ever going direct.

True, but doesn't the MASTER knob on the Tonehammer the OP uses control the output signal level??
Turn that down to ZERO, hook up the XLR to the mixer, set channel gain on mixer to half, and bring up the Tonehammer master until you get a good level. Adjust either side if the signal is too hot.

I have a similar issue with the DI on my SVT7Pro amp. The XLR DI is too hot for our mixer - there isn't a pad. It has a -40dB pad on the amp.. which is TOO MUCH cut, so I use the 15dB pad on the input side of the amp when I use it.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

My main band has a really nice PA system and my bass sounds great coming out of the JBL PRX735 powered mains. I use an Aguilar Tone Hammer pre-amp/DI and send the signal pre-EQ to our Carvin C1648 mixer via an XLR cable. My guitarist, who does the mixing, says he always has turn the input gain almost to zero because the signal is so hot. I always wondered about that but didn't think too much about it.

I did a gig with another band I play with last night and DI'd into the band's mixer which was sending the mixed signal to the house PA. Even though we tried everything out before hand, when I got to the gig my sound was distorted as soon as the mixer owner moved the input gain off of zero. I brought my Hartke kickback amp as a backup and tried its DI and the same thing happened. I ended up plugging straight into the mixer and playing with no stage monitoring, but it was OK since the house mains were above and behind us (complicated story).

For tonight's gig, I am going to try to run an XLR-TS cable into our mixer and see how it goes.

But my question remains: why does it seem that the signal coming out of both these DI's is so hot? I understand the differences between Line level and instrument level (and even lower powered mic level). And it is no secret that the balanced out from the TH is hot. From [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]:

¼” output level: 4VRMS maximum
XLR output level: 8VRMS maximum balanced

So the balanced output is even higher than the ¼” output which I send to my power amp.

I guess I am missing something. Why don't either of the DIs I used (TH and the kickback's DI) send a balanced signal at the voltage that mixers are looking for in the XLR-in jacks?. Is it just that the mixers that I am experiencing are limited to taking only instrument/line level signals? Do other mixers have the ability to select?

As I said, I will try using an XLR-to-TS conversion cable tonight so I can plug it into the mixer's line level ¼” jack. But is this normally required?

I do this stuff at work all the time. Interfacing audio. It can be more complicated than it first appears to be.

First, that cable you show is wrong.
It is an XLR to 1/4" TS adapter. However it is NOT a balanced audio to unbalanced audio adapter.
Balanced audio uses two internal conductors for audio and neither conductor includes the cable shield.
This is the configuration that works with an XLR connector.
Standard XLR wiring is audio carried on pins 2 for audio + and pin 3 for audio -. The shield is connected to pin 1.
No audio is carried on the shield of balanced audio.

Unbalanced audio use a single internal conductor plus the cable shield. Audio is carried on the shield.
The 1/4" Tip/Sleeve configuration has audio + on the Tip and audio - on the Sleeve which is also the shield.

You have 3 connections on one end and two on the other! ***? How is that supposed to work with 3 conductors on one end and two on the other?
Well it might work depending on luck and the right equipment at both ends. But you really need to do a proper bal to unbal (or unbal to bal) conversion. That involves either using a bal unbal transformer, or some active electronics, a bal to unbal amplifier to make the conversion.

Once you get that squared away, you also have a level problem. Taking the input to the mixer and assuming it is balanced audio/XLR there are two levels involved. Mic level and line level. Line level is typically +4 dbu while mic level typically is -50 dbu. The difference between the two is in the neighborhood of around 1000 to 1.
Stay away from connecting to the mixer using unbalanced (two conductor) cables.
If your D.I. output is XLR you should be connecting to a mixer with XLR inputs, using an XLR cable. If you are trying to connect to a mixer using 1/4 TS or even RCA/Phono connectors, and not doing a proper bal to unbal conversion then you're just asking for trouble.

It sounds like you are also feeding line level audio to an input that is expecting mic level.
A decent mixer, in addition to having XLR inputs will also have a switch so that the input can accept line or mic level and the level control on the mixer will function properly with either, provided the switch is in the right position.

Find someone who knows what they are doing, and/or is using the proper equipment and/or who knows how to interface bal and unbal audio. It's not a big deal once you get it. But getting it is a big deal.

 

[Mosfed]

It's a line level signal. Why do you need to add input gain?

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

It's a line level signal. Why do you need to add input gain?

A bal to unbal/unbal to bal amplifier does not necessarily add gain and can attenuate as needed. Most importantly they are adjustable to dial in the exact level you need so that you can control the level with the mixer. If you are feeding line level to a mic input, it will be too hot and as soon as the mixer level control comes up off zero the signal will be too much. A bal/unbal transformer won't adjust for level differences. And unless you have a variable attenuator the input levels will only be in the ballpark at best.

 

[HeadWind]

Thanks all. Just got back from last night's gig (it was at a campground, and I stayed over there afterwards - all gigs should be like that! Load up, drive only 100 yards, park, then sit around a campfire already in full swing set up by some band fans.)

Thanks for all the responses. In conclusion:

• I definitely will pick up a 20 db pad. That seems to be what I need when I play with folks with the (forget the brand) powered mixer (less frequently, and mostly smaller places where I don't go into the mains anyway). Good idea @ArtechnikA about a pigtail to reduce damage potential.
• I just went into the Carvin's XLR input last night as I usually do with my main band. That mixer can turn down the input gain so it works. It's just that it has to be turned way down, but hey, it works. I was just posing the question in case I missed something and I find myself DI-ing into some other mixer sometime, like I did two nights ago. Seems like so long as I have pad plug, I should be fine.
• Yes @Old Garage-Bander, that cable I linked to is not a balanced-to-balanced cable. I would check the actual wiring diagram before making a purchase. However, I thought the line in ¼” jack on our Carvin mixer was unbalanced, but I just checked the manual and it says it accepts both balanced and unbalanced, so it I were to get one of those cables, yes, I would get an XLR-TRS. But I think I will just go with the 20 db pad plug.
• @monkeyland : That Carvin mixer is really quite nice (and yes, this is the one where we can set the input gain to just above zero and it works). But it doesn't have a pad button.
• @s0c9 : I always send my DI pre-EQ rather than post. That way I can control the volume of my stage cabinet without affecting the volume going through the PA. I sometimes need to do this when, for example, the guitarist switches between acoustic and electric. The electric goes through his stage amp next to mine and makes it harder to hear my bass, but the acoustic only goes through the mains. The point being, adjusting the gain or volume on the TH won't affect what is going to the mixer when I have it set to "pre".
• It is interesting that I had the same problem with the DI from my Hartke kickback. I haven't checked the manual on that amp, but it was also too hot for the powered mixer last Friday night. So this just doesn't seem just to be a TH issue. But again, the pad pug probably would have fixed that.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

My main band has a really nice PA system and my bass sounds great coming out of the JBL PRX735 powered mains. I use an Aguilar Tone Hammer pre-amp/DI and send the signal pre-EQ to our Carvin C1648 mixer via an XLR cable. My guitarist, who does the mixing, says he always has turn the input gain almost to zero because the signal is so hot. I always wondered about that but didn't think too much about it.

I did a gig with another band I play with last night and DI'd into the band's mixer which was sending the mixed signal to the house PA. Even though we tried everything out before hand, when I got to the gig my sound was distorted as soon as the mixer owner moved the input gain off of zero. I brought my Hartke kickback amp as a backup and tried its DI and the same thing happened. I ended up plugging straight into the mixer and playing with no stage monitoring, but it was OK since the house mains were above and behind us (complicated story).

For tonight's gig, I am going to try to run an XLR-TS cable into our mixer and see how it goes.

But my question remains: why does it seem that the signal coming out of both these DI's is so hot? I understand the differences between Line level and instrument level (and even lower powered mic level). And it is no secret that the balanced out from the TH is hot. From [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]:

¼” output level: 4VRMS maximum
XLR output level: 8VRMS maximum balanced

So the balanced output is even higher than the ¼” output which I send to my power amp.

I guess I am missing something. Why don't either of the DIs I used (TH and the kickback's DI) send a balanced signal at the voltage that mixers are looking for in the XLR-in jacks?. Is it just that the mixers that I am experiencing are limited to taking only instrument/line level signals? Do other mixers have the ability to select?

As I said, I will try using an XLR-to-TS conversion cable tonight so I can plug it into the mixer's line level ¼” jack. But is this normally required?

If you amp has a signal adjustment knob on your DI (my old Eden does) just turn that down a bit and you should be fine. I've had to turn my signal down once and up one time too. Most of the time it just stays straight up flat.

Just had another thought because I had a mixing board do this to me once. Ask the guy running the board to be sure that phantom power is OFF on your channel. You don't want him sending power to you because you are not a mic that needs it. Your DI should have protection built in so it doesn't damage your amp, but it "might" be causing part of your problem if he has it turned on. Don't really know if that would make a difference, but may as well cover it.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Thanks all. Just got back from last night's gig (it was at a campground, and I stayed over there afterwards - all gigs should be like that! Load up, drive only 100 yards, park, then sit around a campfire already in full swing set up by some band fans.)

Thanks for all the responses. In conclusion:

• I definitely will pick up a 20 db pad. That seems to be what I need when I play with folks with the (forget the brand) powered mixer (less frequently, and mostly smaller places where I don't go into the mains anyway). Good idea @ArtechnikA about a pigtail to reduce damage potential.
• I just went into the Carvin's XLR input last night as I usually do with my main band. That mixer can turn down the input gain so it works. It's just that it has to be turned way down, but hey, it works. I was just posing the question in case I missed something and I find myself DI-ing into some other mixer sometime, like I did two nights ago. Seems like so long as I have pad plug, I should be fine.
• Yes @Old Garage-Bander, that cable I linked to is not a balanced-to-balanced cable. I would check the actual wiring diagram before making a purchase. However, I thought the line in ¼” jack on our Carvin mixer was unbalanced, but I just checked the manual and it says it accepts both balanced and unbalanced, so it I were to get one of those cables, yes, I would get an XLR-TRS. But I think I will just go with the 20 db pad plug.
• @monkeyland : That Carvin mixer is really quite nice (and yes, this is the one where we can set the input gain to just above zero and it works). But it doesn't have a pad button.
• @s0c9 : I always send my DI pre-EQ rather than post. That way I can control the volume of my stage cabinet without affecting the volume going through the PA. I sometimes need to do this when, for example, the guitarist switches between acoustic and electric. The electric goes through his stage amp next to mine and makes it harder to hear my bass, but the acoustic only goes through the mains. The point being, adjusting the gain or volume on the TH won't affect what is going to the mixer when I have it set to "pre".
• It is interesting that I had the same problem with the DI from my Hartke kickback. I haven't checked the manual on that amp, but it was also too hot for the powered mixer last Friday night. So this just doesn't seem just to be a TH issue. But again, the pad pug probably would have fixed that.

Yes XLR to TRS is the way to go.
1/4" TRS for balanced audio is often used to where an XLR won't fit, or to save costs.
But that should work fine for your application. And it never hurts to have a pad on hand.