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Double Bass What can we learn (or not learn) from cello?

Les Fret

Les Fret

Sep 9, 2009
7,213
6,917
nextlevel-slapbass.com
#1
Lately I have been watching a lot of youtube videos of cello players.

My luthier has learned from a cello teacher and he says that the technique of cello is exactly the same as for bass.
My teacher on the other hand always says: 'a bass is not a cello'.

So what do you think are the similarities or difference in bass and cello technique? besides the obvious different tuning and fingerings of course.

In what way can we as bass players benefit from special cello techniques (left and right hand).
 
#2
The general principles of playing any stringed instrument will apply equally to cello and bass. The LH fingers shorten strings in special places to create different notes for the RH to then execute either by bowing or plucking.

Size of instrument makes a huge difference to physical ease of playing and note response times also. As well as allowing the range of each instrument this affects the way composers write. The violin plays thousands of notes to our few. All instruments share the following -

(1) Best tone and clarity come from drawing the bow at 90 degrees to each string with steady contact points.
(2) Timing and coordination between hands has to be very good to avoid blurs and unwanted extra noises in the sounds
(3) The left hand has to work hard to articulate slurred passages clearly with good rythm
(4) The same parameters (variables) apply to creating the sound you want with the bow, such as bow speed,weight and distance from the bridge. Also bow quality, hair tension, amount of hair contact, brand of strings, brand of rosin, etc.
(5)The language used to write down the music on paper is the same.
(6) The same bowing patterns, articulations and ranges of dynamics speed and expression apply.

You can probably think of more.

The difference in physical size between cello and bass immediately means different seating requirements and yet there are basic guidelines in common. Keep an imaginary arrow pointing from your chest towards the bridge. Don't have the instrument neck too close to yours or the nut too high and too far back behind your head (to avoid twisting your torso and stiffening your neck and shoulder). The shorter cello string length means that the bow contact point is within easy reach. The down side of this can be that there is less room for the bow arm to manouver. The right wrist can easily become too pronated. The bass requires stretching down more for the bow contact point that will project best tone and range of expression. I think this arm movement blends shoulder, elbow, wrist and finger movements more naturally.

Shorter lighter strings closer together and a thinner neck make LH work much easier on cello. The lighter bow is much more manouverable too.The ease of playing and faster responses possible are reflected in the difficulty of parts written. The roles it plays in the string section also reflect that it has a baritone-through-to-tenor voice range (in human terms) that is more interesting as a soloist than bass. I think that the lower part of the bass range (the orchestral part?) is where the bass naturally sounds its best and many players want too pretty a sound in the higher range that might please them but is still is not as interesting to the listener. Keep it honest and earthy!!

Longer thicker heavier strings are required to slow down the frequencies of bass notes,
especially the E string (41.7 times per second?). Our bows are heavier and stronger, our rosin is stickier and yet the notes do not reach full tone for the first ten vibrations (demonstrated to me by Knut Guerttler on his computer). The open E string takes nearly 1/4 second for full tone. Over the range of the bass the mechanical sound of faster notes being started is often more audible than the body of tone that follows. Notes often decay more slowly than the cello too which can lead to spilling over the written note lengths into places not wanted.

If I am correct, once upon a time (in Leopold Mozart's time?) the double bass was more highly regarded than the cello. In Haydn's time there were about thirty double bass concertos in circulation, including one by him that has been lost. Since then cello pedagogy has taken off and is still ahead of double bass. Cello students seem to be much better prepared technically for their role and at an earlier age because they can start learning years before the bass on good sounding smaller instruments. They have a wider range of student repertoire available and generally end up better sight readers too. The flood of Chinese and Korean instruments have provided good tone and playability at a much, much cheaper price than the bass.

Yehudi Menuhin, famous violinist and teacher, commissioned books from leading teachers of the day. I would recommend William Pleeth's "Cello" (Menuhin Series), a paperback, not only for his philosophy of teaching and learning but also his chapters explaining technique, including reasons for how he sat to align his bow hold and move his bowing arm. This can be beautifully related to the way we bassists should set up our French bow hold and bow arm movements.

Would the student who borrowed my copy and failed to return it please confess!!!

DP
 
#3
Good observations and nice read!

David Potts said:
The shorter cello string length means that the bow contact point is within easy reach. The down side of this can be that there is less room for the bow arm to manouver. The right wrist can easily become too pronated. The bass requires stretching down more for the bow contact point that will project best tone and range of expression. I think this arm movement blends shoulder, elbow, wrist and finger movements more naturally.
Click to expand...

Is this why the right hand wrist from most cello players is bend more and has more movement then that of most bass players?
 
#4
The bend in the wrist is called pronation. On the bass we notice this most when we play on the E string. The bend stiffens and weakens the forearm muscles - it does negative things for our playing!

William Pleeth suggests a way of sitting behind the cello that flattens out the wrist pronation and angles the bow hand slightly forward and in a few degrees by rotating the elbow up and out slightly. The elbow is a hinge joint. It only works in one direction. His aim is to bend the elbow in the same direction as the bow points.

Tom Martin told me about this book. He went to Pleeth for lessons when (if I recall correctly) he was already Principal DB in the London Symphony Orchestra! Pleeth taught the famous English Cellist, Jaqueline Du Pre for eight years. Pleeth was renowned as a player and teacher in the London music scene of his day.

My observation as an examiner for all strings up to 8th Grade in our Australian Music Examinations Board (AMEB) system is that people who hold the French bow with their knuckles parallel to the stick tend to rely more on bowing from the shoulder, wrist and fingers because their elbow is often lower. When they do bend their elbow to bow they have to pronate more to keep the bow on the strings.

Also cellists' bow hands are a lot closer to their shoulders, causing them to "sit up and beg". When bass players approach bowing like this they are often bowing in Sul Tasto, over the end of the fingerboard, with poor tone and projection.

There need not be a lot of wrist and finger movement at each end of the bow during changes. Flexibility, sensitivity and an understanding of how each string works will reduce movements to the minimum. The other factor is good timing and coordination between hands. The bow change can still look artistic however I am very suspicious of very florid wrist and finger movements. Too much room for blurs and extra sounds!!

Best wishes

DP
 
#5
David Potts said:
Also cellists' bow hands are a lot closer to their shoulders, causing them to "sit up and beg". When bass players approach bowing like this they are often bowing in Sul Tasto, over the end of the fingerboard, with poor tone and projection.
Click to expand...

that was exactly what I meant. Because the underarm and hand is closer to the shoulder the wrist is bend more then on a bass. So therefore there is more movement in the wrist. More straight at the end of the downbow and more bend at the end of the upbow. On bass you also do that but less I think.
 
#6
And on top of all that, if he is a luthier, not a performer and is making bold irrational claims like that you must call into question the credibility of the source. On pronation, i would have to say that a fair degree of pronation is necessary if one wants a shot at producing a full sound at the tip of the bow whichever string one may be on. That being said, there is no one technique for doing anything, and as long as one sounds good and is not doing harm to themselves, then a flat wrist or a bent one could be used to serve a variety of purposes.
 
#7
Ive studied with a great cello teacher. Hes not a fan of pronation, instead he prefers to keep his arms and shoulders down in a more natural and relaxed position to reduce constant tension in the muscles. He "crouches" his fingers on the bow at the tip which keeps the angle and amount of hair constant and allows him to apply a little more torque necessary for constant pressure at the tip.

Ive come to like it more than the Rabbath "son premier" kind of motion.
 
#8
Just to be sure: by pronation do you mean a forward bend of the wrist at the end of the upbow? or more a sideways bend (like playing tremelo)?

and what do you mean by "crouches" the fingers? and "son premier". I don't know these terms.

@blakewdm: my luthier is a teacher and performer too.
 
#9
I can't speak to the specific techniques having never been a cellist, but I just had a grad student graduate from school who arrived as a virtuoso cellist and who left as a great young jazz bassist who even took second place at a professional orchestra audition. To hear him tell it, the biggest adjustment was the size and tension of the bass, which requires more force and as a result requires an intense focus on redirecting where the force was coming from in the left hand. We worked a lot on using arm/shoulder weight to produce the stops in the left hand, and the same in producing the pizz stroke. As far as fingerings, he did just fine, soaking up the 4th tuning like a sponge, and his intonation carried over very well, although he did mention it being harder to hear the sweet spot in the lowest octave.

With the bow, I don't think he had to make too many adjustments at all, and his bowing was amazingly natural. He studied with Sid King as well during the same time (he was a jazz major), and Sid was always blown away at how much transferred so quickly.
 
#10
Pronation really involves the whole arm. Your elbow raises at the end of the stroke which increases torque on the wrist and adds pressure at the bow. But think carefully when you try it - does it feel natural and comfortable? I think there are better alternatives. IMO.

Secondly if you hold a french bow like a cello bow, or like the rabbath method, you can either extend or collapse your fingers and bring the bow closer into your palm. This alters your grip on the bow, and alters the angle of the hair in relation to the strings.

If you look up rabbath on youtube youll see his main way of playing. He calls his default stroke son premier.

Ive taken many ideas from his playing, but its important not to copy exactly otherwise you wont find whats best for you.
 
#11
I should qualify what I said about pronation weakening strength when playing on the E string in #4 above. What I meant was the effect of pronation on the LEFT HAND strength as an example.

The combinaton of a small amount of pronation with flexible fingers and bow hold, and coupled with good timing and coordination, probably gives the best legato direction change at the heel of the bow. It enables the wrist and heavier arm muscles to change direction in advance of the fingertips and bow following through to be the last to change direction. Right at this point is the change of note or string. At the point of the bow the change of direction is preceeded by the slight pronation of the wrist when the the fingers and bow follow through while the wrist and arm change direction. The important thing is to get the sequence right so that the bow is the last to change direction.

It is useful to see the chain of events while sitting at a table and resting your fingertips in "piano playing shape" in front of you. Relax your fingers and wrist then simulate bowing movements, not trying to push your hand through the change at each end but letting the drag of your fingertips dictate the amount of wrist movement. The last to change direction are your fingertips.

Cheers

DP

Perfection is within my reach but slightly out of my grasp!!!

DP
 
#12
David Potts said:
Longer thicker heavier strings are required to slow down the frequencies of bass notes,
especially the E string (41.7 times per second?). Our bows are heavier and stronger, our rosin is stickier and yet the notes do not reach full tone for the first ten vibrations (demonstrated to me by Knut Guerttler on his computer). The open E string takes nearly 1/4 second for full tone. Over the range of the bass the mechanical sound of faster notes being started is often more audible than the body of tone that follows.
Click to expand...

I don't want to lead things too far off topic, but could you elaborate on Knut Guerttler's demonstration?
 
#13
What I've noticed about cello players;

1) produce enough vibrato for the whole orchestra.

2) when its marked "soli" at pp, play as loud and cutting as possible.

3) when there is an A, D, or G written never, ever play it as an open string. Play it out of tune then turn around and look at the basses in disgust.

3a) never use a simple fingering in first position to avoid playing an open string. When it's out of tune, blame the basses.

4) take all the credit when the conductor mentions how rich and deep the orchestra sounds.

5) the worst one will sit closest to the principal bassist.

6) if a note is a low Eb, D, Db or C, it'll be out of tune. Blame the basses again.

7) if the bassoon or horn is playing the same melody, play louder to drown it out.

8) feel pity for the bassist, they never get to play "real" music outside of the orchestra.
 
#14
I visited Knut Guerttler after my then orchestra, the Sydney Symphony, ended its European tour. I had asked him, as well as Duncan McTier and Tom Martin, if they would help me review the way I taught bass and make suggestions. Over four days with Knut we worked through his book, "A Guide To Advanced Modern Double Bass Technique", published by Rodney Slatford's Yorke Edition. I was able to ask as many questions as I could think of and I will be forever grateful for Knut's guidance.

As well as being Bass Professor at the School of Music, Oslo, Knut was employed as a researcher, with a laboratory set up to scientifically examine both the physics of string playing and the physiology of the human body and the way muscles are used. He made extensive use of technology and was able to demonstrate to me all sorts of characteristics of string vibrations through computer graphics. He showed me on his computer the changes in wave form through the first ten vibrations as the tone grew. Amongst many other things he showed me was that unless two small muscles at the back of the shoulder near the armpit are working you cannot produce a nice vibrato. He seemed to hook people up to ECGs as part of his research into physiology.

Section 10 in Knut's book is titled How The String Moves When Bowed and you can see some of the results of his research there. I can't find reference to the first ten string vibrations there but I'm sure my memory is correct.

Best wishes

DP
 
#17
If you go to Post #12 in the recent thread Vibrato and click on the Utube address Ibragimov is playing Andante & Allegro (for French Horn) by Schumann. There are lots of side-on shots that show he often straightens out all but his index finger when bowing!!
Yet what a sound!!!

My best guess for the answer to your ? is that lifting the pinkie takes stiffness out of the bow hold at the point of the bow and allows the index finger and thumb to move during the turn around. The 3rd (ring) finger would still provide enough triangulation of bow hold to assist the turnaround

It does not matter if the pinkie lifts but with one qualification. You need the pinkie to counterbalance the bow wanting to slide towards the floor when bowing inside the balance point of the bow (nearer the frog).

This is especially so with French bass bow that is much heavier than cello bow. Start a slow gentle up bow at the point then raise the back three fingers. (1) The role of index finger and thumb as a "hook" is plainly demonstrated. (2) When you reach the balance point of the bow the bow weight suddenly takes over and the bow wants to slide to the floor.

I liken what Ibragimov did to drawing a piece of limp string draped across the strings out straight. If the conditions are good the bow almost straightens out by itself to 90 degrees to the string with steady contact point.

DP
 
#18
David Potts said:
As well as being Bass Professor at the School of Music, Oslo, Knut was employed as a researcher, with a laboratory set up to scientifically examine both the physics of string playing and the physiology of the human body and the way muscles are used. He made extensive use of technology and was able to demonstrate to me all sorts of characteristics of string vibrations through computer graphics. He showed me on his computer the changes in wave form through the first ten vibrations as the tone grew. Amongst many other things he showed me was that unless two small muscles at the back of the shoulder near the armpit are working you cannot produce a nice vibrato. He seemed to hook people up to ECGs as part of his research into physiology.
Click to expand...

Sounds awesome, I'm going to have to get a hold of this book.
 

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