What can we possibly expect from Yamaha taking over Ampeg?

[Jeff Scott]

Even if Ampeg didn't have anything in development, how long should it take for a huge manufacturing company with decades of MI design and manufacturing experience, to design and build a new bass amp?
(really a question for those of you in audio design and manufacturing)

Perhaps, Yamaha doesn't see the need, at the moment, for a new model in the line?

 

[JimmyM]

Agreed, that was a horrible time but I don't think there should be any guilt by association between LOUD and Yamaha.
The circumstances and the corporate culture couldn't be more opposite.

Right...like not just trying to cash in for the quick bucks by putting out inferior products.

There really aren't that many products in production to evaluate and most have at least a few year history.

Well it's not like you can't still get them

Even if Ampeg didn't have anything in development, how long should it take for a huge manufacturing company with decades of MI design and manufacturing experience, to design and build a new bass amp?
(really a question for those of you in audio design and manufacturing)

Well you and I have enough Ampeg stuff to tide ourselves over for now, so I'm not too worried about it. It comes out when it comes out.

 

[agedhorse]

I don't know of any major company that's been around longer than 15 years that didn't have at least one problematic amp. Mesa recently had a bit of a fiasco with the M9 having problems, and Mesa's solution was to reduce the wattage to the same as the M6 and not tell anyone. I clearly remember GK having ongoing problems with overheating in the 80's. And don't get me started on Fender!

Jimmy - for the record, Mesa was up front about the necessary changes to the M9 due to the lateral MOS-FETs not being consistently capable of operating at the higher power level. When these original parts were discontinued, even secondary screening of the replacement parts was no longer viable and the only practical solution was to de-rate the amp to the level of the M6. At this point, ALL of the lateral MOS-FETs have been discontinued (in production quantities) so the entire concept is no longer viable.

Long before my time at Mesa, I designed several products with lateral MOS-FETs (Hitachi and Toshiba parts) and I found an amazingly inconsistent spread of tolerances from the most respected fab in the industry, and I de-rated the raw parts going into the design for this reason (not a big issue because the power levels were lower), and other manufacturers using the same parts ran into the same challenges, which I suspect is the reason that they faded from use. When they worked, they were incredible parts and allowed for some very cool designs, but when they didn't work, they were a giant pain in the ass.

 

[Jim C]

Hey Andy,
How long would you think it would take a big company with lots of audio design and manufacturing experience to design and build a bass amp?
Not looking to criticize any of the manufacturers mentioned in this thread but curious as to how long it has taken you and others to get from start to prototype, or perhaps the 1st production run.

Since very few of us have any experience in this arena, thought it might be interesting to hear what it takes (either in this thread or a new one).

 

[beans-on-toast]

In Yamaha's case, I understand that the holdup with the 50th edition is obtaining world wide regulatory approval. In terms of new designs, first the financial people needed to assess the products, determine what to keep. At some point a design team was required. Yamaha designs are top notch going way back. They think through everything with a fine attention to detail. This takes time. The Ampeg products all require a lot of attention, Yamaha's standards are high.

 

[Jim C]

[QUOTE="beans-on-toast, post: 23754562, member: 123838"They think through everything with a fine attention to detail. This takes time. [/QUOTE]

More than a year?
I've been in design and manufacturing for electro-mechanical gear but never consumer electronics.

 

[agedhorse]

Good question.

In the case of Yamaha and Ampeg, I can make some educated guesses based on my personal experience with Yamaha as a company.

IME, Yamaha is a very engineering oriented company full of VERY knowledgeable and experienced people. They are also a conservative lot when it comes to designing a new product, they evaluate and analyze existing products before moving forward. Everything they do is deliberate, step by step. I would expect that by now Yamaha knows more about the existing Ampeg products than Ampeg ever did.

2 years wouldn't surprise me at all, even 3 years wouldn't surprise me either.

IME, they will analyze the existing products, model and simulate the various circuits, analyze for performance, failure modes and manufacturerability. They will then redesign as needed, add new elements, and format the data for their own manufacturing environment. Then there are prototypes, backup documentation, extensive testing, and when they are happy with the results they will submit samples for safety and EMC testing. All the while, there will be marketing and sales teams working hand in hand.

It's a lot of work, no doubt. Yamaha (audio) routinely releases many high tech products and has an enviable track record for introduces successful and reliable products.

 

[SJan3]

We all want it great and we want it now. That may not be entirely possible but it's the dream.
And for the elder statesmen/women, we'd like it ASAP.

 

[jamro217]

Jimmy - for the record, Mesa was up front about the necessary changes to the M9 due to the lateral MOS-FETs not being consistently capable of operating at the higher power level. When these original parts were discontinued, even secondary screening of the replacement parts was no longer viable and the only practical solution was to de-rate the amp to the level of the M6. At this point, ALL of the lateral MOS-FETs have been discontinued (in production quantities) so the entire concept is no longer viable.

Long before my time at Mesa, I designed several products with lateral MOS-FETs (Hitachi and Toshiba parts) and I found an amazingly inconsistent spread of tolerances from the most respected fab in the industry, and I de-rated the raw parts going into the design for this reason (not a big issue because the power levels were lower), and other manufacturers using the same parts ran into the same challenges, which I suspect is the reason that they faded from use. When they worked, they were incredible parts and allowed for some very cool designs, but when they didn't work, they were a giant pain in the ass.

Unfortunately, this problem is universal. Regardless of what product you manufacture you are reliant on the integrity of the individual parts used. If one of those parts is junk the whole project can be ruined. Consider the total number of outsourced parts on an automobile. If the Takata airbag incident didn't prove this, nothing will. If the part wasn't identified as Takata's but rather as one of the automaker's, the automaker's reputation was the one to suffer. People buys Fords, not Takatas.

 

[CTBassGuy]

We all want it great and we want it now. That may not be entirely possible but it's the dream.
And for the elder statesmen/women, we'd like it ASAP.

“Good, Cheap, Fast”... You can only pick 2.

 

[Dp1363]

So this is who owns Yamaha FYI.


Nikkei 225 - Wikipedia

Not exactly a small company.
I suppose if they wanted to they could make the nicest bass amp on the planet.

I for one hope the quality improves. The Ampeg cabs have been great but the amps seem to be hit or miss. I have personally seen many horror stories from both the Vietnam and China made amps. I really don't think they ever got a true handle on some the design issues with some of the products. At one point I went into GetSilly and every amp in stock had severe issues.

I hope to see a 200 watt V4B and a nice cab to go with it, maybe a cool matching vintage looking 6x10.
I don't currently own any Ampeg gear but I'm a sucker for the vintage grill cloth, never liked the black Ampegs.

My first real amp was a 69 V4 so I have history with Ampeg but do not currently own any.
My issue is I don't care for an SVT, just too big and complicated and the V4 just isn't quite loud enough.
Really IMO the best compromise was the SVT 3Pro as it had a built in gooey circuit but it was on the edge power/volume wise.

Would also like to see some cooler class D designs, to me most of the newer Ampeg designs looked like they were designed by a person without a clue for design.

I think a 200 watt V4-B would be a big seller. I had a V4-B, loved the tone but 100 Watts just to light for certain gigs, especially outdoors.

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy - for the record, Mesa was up front about the necessary changes to the M9 due to the lateral MOS-FETs not being consistently capable of operating at the higher power level. When these original parts were discontinued, even secondary screening of the replacement parts was no longer viable and the only practical solution was to de-rate the amp to the level of the M6. At this point, ALL of the lateral MOS-FETs have been discontinued (in production quantities) so the entire concept is no longer viable.

Well that was before your time at Mesa, so I'm not holding you personally responsible for it

 

[Doufuss]

Yamaha really does build some nice stuff. Motorcycles they get. I have a friend who ran into some hard times money wise and dumped his HD for a Star. He says (quietly and in private) that there is no comparison quality wise and he would never go back.

On the other hand, I ordered a BB734A and I was shocked when it showed up with razor sharp fret ends. I spent hours fixing that. Now, it's a great bass but I was pretty disappointed considering how good most of their stuff is. I guess it was built to a price point and you get what you get.

I own a Yamaha PB1 and 35 years in, it still works and sounds great. Although it doesn't get used much because of the weight. Its would be cool to see something like this make a comeback within the Ampeg line. Or even Yamaha badged, perhaps as a pedal?

 

[Biggbass]

What can we possibly expect from Yamaha taking over Ampeg?

A new YZ 810 ?

 

[JimmyM]

While I am a fan of the preamps that Ampeg had as well as the PB 1, I wouldn't expect to come back. They all got discontinued for a reason, and that reason is people just didn't buy them.

 

[heatheroo1]

Yamaha really does build some nice stuff.
I own a Yamaha PB1 and 35 years in, it still works and sounds great. Although it doesn't get used much because of the weight. Its would be cool to see something like this make a comeback within the Ampeg line. Or even Yamaha badged, perhaps as a pedal?

I have a Yamaha FIFTY115B combo that's been going strong since 1976. Its my go to amp for theater and jazz gigs because it is dead quiet.

 

[agedhorse]

I have a Yamaha FIFTY115B combo that's been going strong since 1976. Its my go to amp for theater and jazz gigs because it is dead quiet.

I bet it doesn't need new capacitors either, like the usual suspects always suggest...

 

[beans-on-toast]

I have a Yamaha FIFTY115B combo that's been going strong since 1976. Its my go to amp for theater and jazz gigs because it is dead quiet.

All my Yamaha electronic equipment from the 80’s is still working like a charm. I marvel when I look at the quality PCB design and construction, even from back then.

The Yamaha Professional people are a pleasure to deal with. They don't just put out a product, there is a lot of infrastructure for support that goes with it. Well beyond what most companies extend to.

 

[bluesblaster]

I would like to see them take the In n Out burger approach to Ampeg, stick with the classics everyone knows and loves and make them the best they have ever been, dont try to be all things at once. That being said, I think were all aware of the classic Ampeg line up (SVT, V4B, B-15 ) and maybe offer a line of top notch combo amps w/ lightweight speakers ala fenders rumble series. They dont need 20 different amp heads and speaker cabs.

 

[Ric Vice]

Good question.



.......IME, they will analyze the existing products, model and simulate the various circuits, analyze for performance, failure modes and manufacturerability. They will then redesign as needed, add new elements, and format the data for their own manufacturing environment. Then there are prototypes, backup documentation, extensive testing, and when they are happy with the results they will submit samples for safety and EMC testing. All the while, there will be marketing and sales teams working hand in hand.

It's a lot of work, no doubt. Yamaha (audio) routinely releases many high tech products and has an enviable track record for introduces successful and reliable products.

This is truly what one would want from Yamaha. Ampeg designs come from so many different periods and ownerships. There's the Jess Oliver B-15N, Rodger Cox and Bill Hughes'SVT's, V4B's, the newer digital Portaflex models from Loud. All those designs were done by different engineers.

My assumption is that there are frequently occasions where a key part/component becomes unavailable, and different one has to be substituted. It's good to have a well staffed and knowledgable technical division so that a legacy product, with a loyal following

can be continued.