Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
What constitutes a bass player being considered overrated ?
- Thread starter JAUQO III-X
- Start date
Good point worker!
I have read many an article that equally praise or denegrate (I hope I am using that word correctly here...) many works of art. However, keep in mind that the critic must have some validation for their argument.
Example: I may not like "X" bass player as a person-if I feel I know them through interviewing them and/or spending time with them. Maybe that person has a huge "ego". Thus, that person isn't my cup of tea. But, is my criticism based on my musical knowledge in conjunction with their body of work or based upon my personal knowledge of someone who appears to be a jerk?
I know many musicians that I probably may not like on a personal level, but I do respect their accomplishments as a player. I can safely say I am my worst critic!
That is something to think about.
Essentially, as I'm reading this thread, the people who have insane "chops," "feel," or "groove" (such as Jauqo) feel that critics who can't play at their level shouldn't criticize at all.
The people who don't have quite that advanced a skill set (such as myself) feel that critics don't have to be proficient, just fairly knowledgable about the topic.
I personally feel like many of the other TBers, that putting your work out is tantamount to asking for critique and criticism. In the process of "paying my dues" (which I'm still doing, and will be for a long time) I developed a thicker skin than to worry about what people are saying about my playing.
I have enough confidence in myself to take any criticism in stride, and to try to use it to constructively help me become a better bassist, even when the critique is made in a negative way.
It does make me wonder if the artist's dismissal of critical opinions (due to the critic's playing ability) is just as valid when the criticism is overwhelmingly positive. I've never heard anyone here complain that people are praising them too much, even when the "artist" is a 30+ session guy who's toured the world and the "critic" is a beginner in Podunk.
This does remind me of conversations on Monday mornings after a football game, though - lots of armchair quarterbacks.
The people who don't have quite that advanced a skill set (such as myself) feel that critics don't have to be proficient, just fairly knowledgable about the topic.
I personally feel like many of the other TBers, that putting your work out is tantamount to asking for critique and criticism. In the process of "paying my dues" (which I'm still doing, and will be for a long time) I developed a thicker skin than to worry about what people are saying about my playing.
I have enough confidence in myself to take any criticism in stride, and to try to use it to constructively help me become a better bassist, even when the critique is made in a negative way.
It does make me wonder if the artist's dismissal of critical opinions (due to the critic's playing ability) is just as valid when the criticism is overwhelmingly positive. I've never heard anyone here complain that people are praising them too much, even when the "artist" is a 30+ session guy who's toured the world and the "critic" is a beginner in Podunk.
This does remind me of conversations on Monday mornings after a football game, though - lots of armchair quarterbacks.
I've been in and out on this thread, but I've noticed someting on TB in the last year. I think it has less to do with "chops" and more to do with knowledge of particular genres.
Whenever Jaco or JAUQO III X or Ornette Coleman or Vernon Reid or Jazz or Free Jazz are discussed, inevitably a Rock/Metal player will say "Its just a bunch of gibberish and chops, its terrible." Usually the response will be "Well you don't have the ears or background to fully hear whats really going on." After that, there are dozens of posts about how someone dosen't need to be a chef to know if food tastes good or not blah blah blah...
Then a few months ago, there was a thread dealing with growled Death Metal vocals and when non-Metal fans and old-school-Metal fans criticised growled vocals, a number of fans of the genre said "If you don't know anything about this style of music, please don't comment."
So yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion, but I would prefer one that is INFORMED.
Whenever Jaco or JAUQO III X or Ornette Coleman or Vernon Reid or Jazz or Free Jazz are discussed, inevitably a Rock/Metal player will say "Its just a bunch of gibberish and chops, its terrible." Usually the response will be "Well you don't have the ears or background to fully hear whats really going on." After that, there are dozens of posts about how someone dosen't need to be a chef to know if food tastes good or not blah blah blah...
Then a few months ago, there was a thread dealing with growled Death Metal vocals and when non-Metal fans and old-school-Metal fans criticised growled vocals, a number of fans of the genre said "If you don't know anything about this style of music, please don't comment."
So yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion, but I would prefer one that is INFORMED.
No, No, No, that is not my attitude at all. I just find it interesting when people are so quick to critique when they may not have a clue that the player they're critiquing is giving the listener exactly what they want to give the listener and they're not even playing for any one other than themselves.
I totally agree
Whats interesting, is how valid is a critique, if the critic is listening to a genre of music that they have never heard or never cared to listen to, but when it becomes the topic of discussion, the critics want to come out in hordes
Yes,Yes,Yes.
So yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion, but I would prefer one that is INFORMED.
Yeah, me too... Too bad it isn't a requirement to cast a vote in our political elections..
Yeah, me too... Too bad it isn't a requirement to cast a vote in our political elections..
Whats interesting, is how valid is a critique, if the critic is listening to a genre of music that they have never heard or never cared to listen to, but when it becomes the topic of discussion, the critics want to come out in hordes
Why worry about them? I'd be far more concerned about the critics who vote with their wallets, by simply not buying what you're selling....
The music business has been kind to many, but cruel to so many more...
Why worry about them? I'd be far more concerned about the critics who vote with their wallets, by simply not buying what you're selling....
The music business has been kind to many, but cruel to so many more...
Could this thread be related to yours? Is the listener "overrating" the said bassist or is the said bassist "overrating" him or herself? (Whatever the definition of overrated is for the purposes of this debate.)
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425685
A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425685
A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!
Could this thread be related to yours? Is the listener "overrating" the said bassist or is the said bassist "overrating" him or herself? (Whatever the definition of overrated is for the purposes of this debate.)
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425685
A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!
No not at all but he doesn't seem to like me.
As soon as someone is dubbed "best" anything, without any context, he/she is overrated IMHO.
"Whoa dude, Flea/Jaco/Cliff/(insert bass player of choice) is, like, the best bass player ever!" = overrated, regardless of their respective skills.
"Flea is the best bass player the Chilis ever had" - hard to argue.
"Jaco is my favourite bass player." - probably the one way to put it which everybody can agree with.
I´d like to add that it usually isn´t the fault of the artist when he/she is considered "overrated".
"Whoa dude, Flea/Jaco/Cliff/(insert bass player of choice) is, like, the best bass player ever!" = overrated, regardless of their respective skills.
"Flea is the best bass player the Chilis ever had" - hard to argue.
"Jaco is my favourite bass player." - probably the one way to put it which everybody can agree with.
I´d like to add that it usually isn´t the fault of the artist when he/she is considered "overrated".
Okay, I'll buy that from you, Jauqo. If you go back and read through the thread, though, I stand by my previous statement - it appears to me to be a common theme - "Oh, yeah? Where's your video?"
I listen to and like most of the stuff I've heard from you, Jauqo, that wasn't meant as a slight against anyone in particular - just an observation. The mentality that a musician is "giving" me something is where I'm confused. In any form of art, I was always under the impression that beauty was found in "the eyes of the beholder." Or ears, as the case may be.
If I can't take anything pleasing away from someone's music, I'm going to be critical of that. It doesn't matter one whit to me whether that's all the deigned to give me, or if they were pouring everything they had into their music.
Take everyone's favorite target - Vic Wooten. His technique is at least an order of magnitude greater than mine, as is his understanding of his instrument. That still does not mean I have to appreciate or be non-critical of his super-peggios and quintiple-thump solo work. I absolutely love his melodic chordal stuff, the music that probably bores him to play, but can't stand it when he starts really going off. *shrug* Despite the fact that he can play circles around me, and despite the idea that he is undoubtedly "giving" me what he chooses, I am critical because I just don't like it. Victor handles criticism well, from what I understand, because while he can play just for himself, he understands that when you come out of the bedroom and let your music be heard, you're no longer making it for yourself. It's a great thing to say, altruistically, but IME if the only person you were playing for was you, the videos wouldn't be on Youtube, the records wouldn't be put out, and no one would ever be overrated.
I didn't take it as such at all.
The mentality that a musician is "giving" me something is where I'm confused. In any form of art, I was always under the impression that beauty was found in "the eyes of the beholder." Or ears, as the case may be.
Maybe that may be the root of all the confusion
Beauty can be found in the eyes, ears of the beholder but who is to say that the creator of the piece is concerned or should be about how others feel about their music.
I completely understand that. In the end, the music I make is more for my soul than for the ears of the people who listen to me.
But if one doesn't care about what people think of their music, then why get all bent out of shape about the critics? That's my fundamental question. If you don't create your music for others, if you don't care if they like it or not, then what difference does it make if a critic of dubious personal skill or taste criticizes it?
Why care if some people consider you overrated? This would obviously not be the case, as only your opinion of your skill is important?
As it should be. One shouldn't have to have their art validated by whether some one is crazy about the creation or not. Trying to be accepted by listeners is one of the biggest cancers most artist are plagued with.
Just do it for you and what happens after that happens.
I can only speak for myself.
I really don't care what others think about my music. I think my actions speak for me very clearly because those that don't like it has not had any effect on what I choose to create in any way.
I was just thinking about how I love to listen to some bassists, but don't enjoy playing along to their lines. Some I love, but could never dream of playing their lines. Some I respect and admire, but don't enjoy listening to or playing to. Then there are those few I want to listen to and play.
It'd be boring if we all liked the same thing. That's what's amazing about guitars - so different in different hands - and then the playing resonates differently in different ears. This is not to say that informed criticism is equal to uninformed, however.
It'd be boring if we all liked the same thing. That's what's amazing about guitars - so different in different hands - and then the playing resonates differently in different ears. This is not to say that informed criticism is equal to uninformed, however.
I must go contrary to popular opinion in this thread-- I think it's cool to value and consider the listener perspective when creating music. That's a big part of my palatte when considering genres or crossing of genres, where to go with arrangement and soforth. I care very much how my audience percieves, reacts to and enjoys my music, and most musicians I meet tend to feel the same way.
I don't care because I'm not doing music to be loved by others. If someone digs my music kool if not I can't lose any sleep over it.
When you put your music out it would be foolish to think that every one will like it or even get it but for those who get it,I'm sure the artist wouldn't complain but welcome it.
If one lets the opinions of others dictate how you should create and nourish you baby then that says a lot about the artist.
Artist should step up to the plate and be their own person.
And PD we may have our differences but this is not at all directed towards you.
When you put your music out it would be foolish to think that every one will like it or even get it but for those who get it,I'm sure the artist wouldn't complain but welcome it.
If one lets the opinions of others dictate how you should create and nourish you baby then that says a lot about the artist.
Artist should step up to the plate and be their own person.
And PD we may have our differences but this is not at all directed towards you.
On the flipside, the fastest way for a musician to become underrated is to have 5 or more people swear that s/he is overrated.
Jauqo, you have gained a new level of respect from me. I was feelin' you from the 1st page, and some of these comments crack me up. Why do ppl try to make stuff so 'deep' all the time? Thats talkbass for you.
Anyway, I will admit, I ALMOST gave into the Vic overrated hype, but I went to a concert recently. I now cant understand how anyone (musician for that matter) can ever call him overrated. Aside from the technical prowess and precision, his musical sense is far beyond 80-90% of what Ive heard on various clips on this forum. Most ppl call him overrated because of technique, but totally miss what hes doing groovewise, harmonically, and even in a back up setting.
Anyway, I will admit, I ALMOST gave into the Vic overrated hype, but I went to a concert recently.
I now cant understand how anyone (musician for that matter) can ever call him overrated. Aside from the technical prowess and precision, his musical sense is far beyond 80-90% of what Ive heard on various clips on this forum. Most ppl call him overrated because of technique, but totally miss what hes doing groovewise, harmonically, and even in a back up setting.
