Double Bass What did Charlie Parker do?

[monroe55]

I want to learn jazz to grow musically. I have good theory foundation ( I know scales, modes, chord tones, fretboard.) Good ear for learning songs blah, blah, blah. Soloing confuses me yet.
I watched the whole Ken Burns history of Jazz series. Loved it. I watched the Dirty Harry movie "Bird" about CParker. Zzzzz. I bought a bunch of classic Jazz Cds (lots of basic stuff from the documentary) and been listening to themfor a while. What I cant grasp is what happened when Bebop came along. They expain it a little in the show but I dont understand exactly how the music changed from bebop and why. It all sounds like "jazz" to me. Before and after the bebop era. I mean I can hear Parker and Dizzie doing some crazy fast soloing stuff but can someone explain why it was so different than someone taking a solo from the swing era?

 

[shwashwa]

more chromatics, more upper extensions on the chords in the solo line (among other things that people will point out im sure) substitue cords on chords (tritone substitution was popular at this time although was used previously too). previously they kept mostly to the lower parts of the harmony. at this time jazz went from being a "dance" (big bands) music to more of a "listening" music. you might make an arguement for more complex rhythmic ideas in the bebop solos too, but this didnt happen in a vaccuume. parker didnt just change things overnight by himself. guys were leading up to this. check out coleman hawkins and lester young. you can hear the beginnings of some of these ideas in their playing. dizzy supposedly arrived at many of the same conclusions before he met parker. also get a copy of the charlie parker omnibook. you'll see what im saying.

I want to learn jazz to grow musically. I have good theory foundation ( I know scales, modes, chord tones, fretboard.) Good ear for learning songs blah, blah, blah. Soloing confuses me yet.
I watched the whole Ken Burns history of Jazz series. Loved it. I watched the Dirty Harry movie "Bird" about CParker. Zzzzz. I bought a bunch of classic Jazz Cds (lots of basic stuff from the documentary) and been listening to themfor a while. What I cant grasp is what happened when Bebop came along. They expain it a little in the show but I dont understand exactly how the music changed from bebop and why. It all sounds like "jazz" to me. Before and after the bebop era. I mean I can hear Parker and Dizzie doing some crazy fast soloing stuff but can someone explain why it was so different than someone taking a solo from the swing era?

 

[Paul Warburton]

Start here.....




Don't watch movies about it and don't read about it by people who weren't there to see it and hear it, with the possibility of a few JAZZ musicians who have done some serious research on the subject.

 

[azureblue]

is "inside" and "outside". Diz and Bird soloed more outside of the structure, and it was the want to get outside of the confines of a tune's structure that gave birth to be bop. If you get a book of Bird's transcribed solos, you'll see what I mean, especially if you get a book of Armstrong's solos. As good as Satch was, he stayed within the structure of the tune, for the most part.

A lot of what D & B did was based upon motif, chord substitution (especially tri tone), and displacement. A very simple example would be to take a 4 note arpeggio, and begin it on the tri tone sub, then repeat it- move it up chromatically until you hit a chordal note of the next chord, or maybe one that is a few measures away.

Let me see if I can describe this: begin with a basic circle 6- I / vi / ii / V7, one chord per measure, in the Key of C. For description's sake, let's limit to 16th notes. So we start with the I chord- it's tri tone is F#. We'll use a basic dominant 7th chord here, in root position- 1, 3, 5 b7. Begin it on the tri tone- F#, play it once, beginning on the second 16th of beat 1, then move it up a half step, then repeat it on G, then on G#, then A. Now you see that you have stopped on a G, one 16th note before the second measure of the progression, which is an A minor. Hold the G which is now the dom7 of A, over into beat 2 of the A minor, then play a B on beat 3 and a D on beat 4- a simple G triad. Hold the D in the next chord, and it becomes the tonic of the ii, a D minor. But we are going to make it a D major, and play an F# against it, which is, of course, the tonic of the F#7 we started of with. Play the F#7 on beat 2 of the D minor, and repeat it in an ascending cycle of 4ths- F#, B, E, A You last note will be G which will land you on the tonic of the V7 chord, the G. On beat 3 play a Bb, and hold it until the C of the progression comes around again, then play it's lower tri tone, which is an E, the third of the C Chord.

I hope this makes sense- it's much easier to play than describe. And one more thing- experiment with ignoring chords between your target notes. Like in this example, look at it like one big 4 measure C chord, and play a mode on the C. Noodle on an F7 for 4 measures and see if you like that sound.

Granted no Jazz player would play it this simply, but this is a beginning point, and it will help you to train your ears and think in terms of target notes- picking a note from one chord, then another from one a few measures away- and how to get from one target note to the next. When you can think like this, then you can pick your target notes from non chordal tones, construct you own melody between your target notes, etc., and solo away.

I prefer the target note way of soloing, because I have found I can construct more interesting melodies that way. In my opinion, focusing on playing modes will result in what a jazz friend of mine calls the "whee doobies" a solo that goes "Whee, doobie, doobie, doobie", and makes no sense at all, except to be a chance to play a bunch of modes and show off chops. But a lot of players were brought up on playing modes, so YMMV. Whatever works for you.

My opinion of Diz and Bird is that they were brilliant mathematicians as well as musicians, becasue it takes a lot of brain work to figure this Be bop theory stuff out, much less play it/

 

[Paul Warburton]

is "inside" and "outside". Diz and Bird soloed more outside of the structure, and it was the want to get outside of the confines of a tune's structure that gave birth to be bop.

Pure BS. (nothing personal).

They, nor any players of the Be Bop era, ever....never, got out of the structure. (unless they got lost). You show me one instance....a clip....whatever.
Misinformation at it's worst.

 

[Paul Warburton]

becasue it takes a lot of brain work to figure this Be bop theory stuff out, much less play it/

Jeeze.

 

[TomSauter]

Here's a clip showing the difference between Charlie Parker and the saxophones players that came before him:

 

[Phil Rowan]

Start here.....




Don't watch movies about it and don't read about it by people who weren't there to see it and hear it, with the possibility of a few JAZZ musicians who have done some serious research on the subject.

+100

 

[Paul Warburton]

shwashwa make the most important point in his post, IMO, to answer the OP's question....it did not happen in a vacuum. I've read chapters in books, one in particular, that literally makes it sound like Bird went into the shed one day....the light came on over his head and he came out in bit loaded up with Be-Bop.....all neatly packaged up for the world to enjoy. This took years of listening and playing with many players that came before him, including the classics.
For instance, Jimmy Dorsey's playing had a huge influence on his playing.
Look, do some simple research.....this ain't brain surgery here fellas. It's nothing but musical evolution......one player influencing another, and straight down the line and timing, in terms, of when it all happen played a part. This is NOT to take anything away from those two heavies that were and are the champs of this great music. I never knew or played with Bird, but I have spent short amounts of time with Dizzy, Red Rodney, Benny Carter and many more who were involved in that scene and I'm sure that they would agree with me that most people now are making a mountain out of a mole hill in difficulty degrees. This music to them, was about as difficult as you and I taking our next breath.....as it should be, IMO.

 

[Treyzer]

...It's nothing but musical evolution......one player influencing another, and straight down the line and timing, in terms, of when it all happen played a part.......This music to them, was about as difficult as you and I taking our next breath.....as it should be, IMO.

So very well stated Paul. Thanks

For me, it is simple and complex at the same time, amazing all the time.

 

[azureblue]

Pure BS. (nothing personal).

They, nor any players of the Be Bop era, ever....never, got out of the structure. (unless they got lost). You show me one instance....a clip....whatever.
Misinformation at it's worst.

Pull out Bird's Omnibook. Begin with: "Now's the Time"--- p74 begin stave 5 m3, starting with the first note, an "E" in an F7 chord, an F# in the same measure, then an Eb and a Bb in a D7 in the next measure. You will find lot more non chordal in the solo. Can you explain this, in light of your refutation of my post?

Note, in the way over played "Donna Lee", how Bird displaces his phrases, beginning his solos a couple of beats after the downbeat and playing across the bar. One could view these as simple introductions / anticipations to the next chord, or tags after, but Bird's repetitive use of offset points to intentional playing across the bar. DL is a classic case of "where's the 1?", to the novice.

"Merry Go Round" is another good example. Stave 3, m2 on a Bb chord, Bird, begins with the 5th, then runs to a Db, holds it over to the C (ii V7)- in the next measure, then ends it with a C#, used as a leading tone to a D minor7 arpeggio in the next measure, the again using an out of the scale Bb to do two things- emphasize the feeling of Bb#9 (blues) that he has played, and to set up for the next 4 notes, B, Ab, E and Db, all played against a Db minor chord. Bird makes it into a Db6 #9 that way. But that whole phrase, from Stave3 m2 to Stave5 m1, is glorified circle 6. While not an display of motive work, it is a great example of non chordal passing tones and delayed resolution- hallmarks of bebop.

Bird learned all this stuff before he played it. Bird was a genius, no doubt, and he learned a lot of his ideas (more brainwork) from classical composers, then sat down to apply them (even more brainwork) to the songs of his day. Learning is brainwork.

 

[monroe55]

is "inside" and "outside". Diz and Bird soloed more outside of the structure, and it was the want to get outside of the confines of a tune's structure that gave birth to be bop. If you get a book of Bird's transcribed solos, you'll see what I mean, especially if you get a book of Armstrong's solos. As good as Satch was, he stayed within the structure of the tune, for the most part.

A lot of what D & B did was based upon motif, chord substitution (especially tri tone), and displacement. A very simple example would be to take a 4 note arpeggio, and begin it on the tri tone sub, then repeat it- move it up chromatically until you hit a chordal note of the next chord, or maybe one that is a few measures away.

Let me see if I can describe this: begin with a basic circle 6- I / vi / ii / V7, one chord per measure, in the Key of C. For description's sake, let's limit to 16th notes. So we start with the I chord- it's tri tone is F#. We'll use a basic dominant 7th chord here, in root position- 1, 3, 5 b7. Begin it on the tri tone- F#, play it once, beginning on the second 16th of beat 1, then move it up a half step, then repeat it on G, then on G#, then A. Now you see that you have stopped on a G, one 16th note before the second measure of the progression, which is an A minor. Hold the G which is now the dom7 of A, over into beat 2 of the A minor, then play a B on beat 3 and a D on beat 4- a simple G triad. Hold the D in the next chord, and it becomes the tonic of the ii, a D minor. But we are going to make it a D major, and play an F# against it, which is, of course, the tonic of the F#7 we started of with. Play the F#7 on beat 2 of the D minor, and repeat it in an ascending cycle of 4ths- F#, B, E, A You last note will be G which will land you on the tonic of the V7 chord, the G. On beat 3 play a Bb, and hold it until the C of the progression comes around again, then play it's lower tri tone, which is an E, the third of the C Chord.

I hope this makes sense- it's much easier to play than describe. And one more thing- experiment with ignoring chords between your target notes. Like in this example, look at it like one big 4 measure C chord, and play a mode on the C. Noodle on an F7 for 4 measures and see if you like that sound.

Granted no Jazz player would play it this simply, but this is a beginning point, and it will help you to train your ears and think in terms of target notes- picking a note from one chord, then another from one a few measures away- and how to get from one target note to the next. When you can think like this, then you can pick your target notes from non chordal tones, construct you own melody between your target notes, etc., and solo away.

I prefer the target note way of soloing, because I have found I can construct more interesting melodies that way. In my opinion, focusing on playing modes will result in what a jazz friend of mine calls the "whee doobies" a solo that goes "Whee, doobie, doobie, doobie", and makes no sense at all, except to be a chance to play a bunch of modes and show off chops. But a lot of players were brought up on playing modes, so YMMV. Whatever works for you.

My opinion of Diz and Bird is that they were brilliant mathematicians as well as musicians, becasue it takes a lot of brain work to figure this Be bop theory stuff out, much less play it/

Huh?

Lol. Just kidding. This actually helped a lot. I m going to make it my goal to learn what I have to about jazz so that I can return to this thread and translate the information you have taken the time to explain to me. Thanks a lot everyone who responded here in DB world. I will take this info back over to the Electric bass forums now. They sent me here originally.

 

[Clay_Bass]

shwashwa make the most important point in his post, IMO, to answer the OP's question....it did not happen in a vacuum. I've read chapters in books, one in particular, that literally makes it sound like Bird went into the shed one day....the light came on over his head and he came out in bit loaded up with Be-Bop.....


For instance, Jimmy Dorsey's playing had a huge influence on his playing.

From what I understand perhaps the biggest influence on bird and diz was John Kirby's sextet? Interesting to note to that a bassist's group and tunes had such an impact on bird and diz being that we are on talkbass and all... It's pretty clear to me how much they checked these guys out if you listen. The tightness of the horns, phrasing, articulation etc.

Pull out Bird's Omnibook. Begin with: "Now's the Time"--- p74 begin stave 5 m3, starting with the first note, an "E" in an F7 chord, an F# in the same measure, then an Eb and a Bb in a D7 in the next measure. You will find lot more non chordal in the solo. Can you explain this, in light of your refutation of my post?

Bird learned all this stuff before he played it. Bird was a genius, no doubt, and he learned a lot of his ideas (more brainwork) from classical composers, then sat down to apply them (even more brainwork) to the songs of his day. Learning is brainwork.

First of all, non chord tones are not the same as "outside the structure". Seems pretty clear that your "knowledge" of theory is getting in the way of using your ears. Bird used his ears for sure, not a textbook. Dizzy said he never once saw bird sit at a piano...

Lots of players play the maj 7 over dominant chords, F# is the b9 used everywhere in jazz. Eb and Bb are the b9 and #5/b13 of the D7 once again all over the place. This stuff is not really considered "outside".

 

[eggfan]

Pull out Bird's Omnibook. Begin with: "Now's the Time"--- p74 begin stave 5 m3, starting with the first note, an "E" in an F7 chord, an F# in the same measure, then an Eb and a Bb in a D7 in the next measure. You will find lot more non chordal in the solo. Can you explain this, in light of your refutation of my post?

Note, in the way over played "Donna Lee", how Bird displaces his phrases, beginning his solos a couple of beats after the downbeat and playing across the bar. One could view these as simple introductions / anticipations to the next chord, or tags after, but Bird's repetitive use of offset points to intentional playing across the bar. DL is a classic case of "where's the 1?", to the novice.

"Merry Go Round" is another good example. Stave 3, m2 on a Bb chord, Bird, begins with the 5th, then runs to a Db, holds it over to the C (ii V7)- in the next measure, then ends it with a C#, used as a leading tone to a D minor7 arpeggio in the next measure, the again using an out of the scale Bb to do two things- emphasize the feeling of Bb#9 (blues) that he has played, and to set up for the next 4 notes, B, Ab, E and Db, all played against a Db minor chord. Bird makes it into a Db6 #9 that way. But that whole phrase, from Stave3 m2 to Stave5 m1, is glorified circle 6. While not an display of motive work, it is a great example of non chordal passing tones and delayed resolution- hallmarks of bebop.

Bird learned all this stuff before he played it. Bird was a genius, no doubt, and he learned a lot of his ideas (more brainwork) from classical composers, then sat down to apply them (even more brainwork) to the songs of his day. Learning is brainwork.

But Bird heard all this stuff before he "learned" it. It didn't come out of his brain in a theoretical sense; it came from his "ears." His brain came in when it came to applying what he was hearing to his horn, to what he already understood musically, and to some degree connecting it to other music that had similar harmonic sounds. I also think you're confusing "chordal" with "structural." A large part of what bop did, as shwashwa says, was precisely to extend the structure and elaborate on it differently. It has nothing to do with a desire to go outside the "structure," but to adjusting the structure to the new sounds. To Bird, a ninth, for example, wasn't just a "passing tone" between chord tones, but an extension of the chord structure, because that's the way he was hearing it - and the way we've learned to hear it subsequently. Where the desire to go "outside" occurred was with the need for a new context for his ideas, since the usual swing idiom couldn't easily accommodate them (and often wasn't interested or found them unappealing or threatening). As has been mentioned, other guys were hearing the same things and working on similar ideas and discussing them. In many ways, it's a natural evolution of the music, but I think it starts with what guys were hearing and their sense of what the next step was, not poring over Stravinsky scores or approaching it as a mental theoretical "problem" requiring a solution.
(Also, where did this idea come from that the Omnibook is the I Ching of bebop and the fount of all knowledge. Analyzing that stuff is fine, but it begins and ends with the ears, IMO.)

 

[monroe55]

Here's a clip showing the difference between Charlie Parker and the saxophones players that came before him:

Whoaooooooooooo maaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!! Thats clip was awesome. I love CParker's, er um, Bird's facial expression. He seems like he was a real cool dude. I like reading that he was a genious and stuff. Can anyone recommend a good Bird biography book? I think I love this music now. I want to learn the Jazz. Is there a tab version of the Omnibook?

 

[Staccato]

Start checking out biographies of jazz musicians at the library-who were performing in the 50's, 60's. Start with Miles Davis, Charlie Parker. The story is not all about what's in the CD's, pick up the well researched biographies (or autobiographies) and skip the online snippets that get repeated or retold in other words.

 

[Treyzer]

.....First of all, non chord tones are not the same as "outside the structure". Seems pretty clear that your "knowledge" of theory is getting in the way of using your ears. Bird used his ears for sure, not a textbook. Dizzy said he never once saw bird sit at a piano...

Lots of players play the maj 7 over dominant chords, F# is the b9 used everywhere in jazz. Eb and Bb are the b9 and #5/b13 of the D7 once again all over the place. This stuff is not really considered "outside".

Plus + to that Clay Bass;

I really don't want to get into a testy exchange and yes I very much understand and can discuss musical theory. However, I always start to snooze when these theory threads start heating up because it tends to become some sort of circular argument/urination contest BUT...

Most of what Azure is describing is scalar not chordal. Chromatics, target notes, upper extensions, tri-tone subs and (Bebop Scales?) are part and parcel of bebop musical vocabulary. I think playing "outside" came much later.

 

[Yango]

What did Charlie Parker do?

Wasn't he the guy that tried to kick the football every year, and that evil chick Lucy would pull it away at the last second causing Charlie Parker to fly up in the air and land flat on his back yelling "AAUGH!"?

I'm pretty sure that was him.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Pull out Bird's Omnibook. Begin with: "Now's the Time"--- p74 begin stave 5 m3, starting with the first note, an "E" in an F7 chord, an F# in the same measure, then an Eb and a Bb in a D7 in the next measure. You will find lot more non chordal in the solo. Can you explain this, in light of your refutation of my post?
Note, in the way over played "Donna Lee", how Bird displaces his phrases, beginning his solos a couple of beats after the downbeat and playing across the bar. One could view these as simple introductions / anticipations to the next chord, or tags after, but Bird's repetitive use of offset points to intentional playing across the bar. DL is a classic case of "where's the 1?", to the novice.
"Merry Go Round" is another good example. Stave 3, m2 on a Bb chord, Bird, begins with the 5th, then runs to a Db, holds it over to the C (ii V7)- in the next measure, then ends it with a C#, used as a leading tone to a D minor7 arpeggio in the next measure, the again using an out of the scale Bb to do two things- emphasize the feeling of Bb#9 (blues) that he has played, and to set up for the next 4 notes, B, Ab, E and Db, all played against a Db minor chord. Bird makes it into a Db6 #9 that way. But that whole phrase, from Stave3 m2 to Stave5 m1, is glorified circle 6. While not an display of motive work, it is a great example of non chordal passing tones and delayed resolution- hallmarks of bebop.

You lost me when you told me to Pull out that book.

I don't have that book because I couldn't understand it any more than your posts. I'm not a person who can communicate with a musician like you seem to be....nothing personal at all.
My reading pretty much sucks...I can read enough to get by.
This constant verbalization and analysis that goes on around here almost daily, leaves me cold. I've been playing this **** pretty successfully now for over 53 years. If, for some weird reason you want to go round and round with me here, do it.
I can't argue on your level, mainly because I'm not at all interested in that level. I think the same holds true for you....
We live in two different worlds.

 

[apell]

is "inside" and "outside". Diz and Bird soloed more outside of the structure, and it was the want to get outside of the confines of a tune's structure that gave birth to be bop. If you get a book of Bird's transcribed solos, you'll see what I mean, especially if you get a book of Armstrong's solos. As good as Satch was, he stayed within the structure of the tune, for the most part.

A lot of what D & B did was based upon motif, chord substitution (especially tri tone), and displacement. A very simple example would be to take a 4 note arpeggio, and begin it on the tri tone sub, then repeat it- move it up chromatically until you hit a chordal note of the next chord, or maybe one that is a few measures away.

Let me see if I can describe this: begin with a basic circle 6- I / vi / ii / V7, one chord per measure, in the Key of C. For description's sake, let's limit to 16th notes. So we start with the I chord- it's tri tone is F#. We'll use a basic dominant 7th chord here, in root position- 1, 3, 5 b7. Begin it on the tri tone- F#, play it once, beginning on the second 16th of beat 1, then move it up a half step, then repeat it on G, then on G#, then A. Now you see that you have stopped on a G, one 16th note before the second measure of the progression, which is an A minor. Hold the G which is now the dom7 of A, over into beat 2 of the A minor, then play a B on beat 3 and a D on beat 4- a simple G triad. Hold the D in the next chord, and it becomes the tonic of the ii, a D minor. But we are going to make it a D major, and play an F# against it, which is, of course, the tonic of the F#7 we started of with. Play the F#7 on beat 2 of the D minor, and repeat it in an ascending cycle of 4ths- F#, B, E, A You last note will be G which will land you on the tonic of the V7 chord, the G. On beat 3 play a Bb, and hold it until the C of the progression comes around again, then play it's lower tri tone, which is an E, the third of the C Chord.

I hope this makes sense- it's much easier to play than describe. And one more thing- experiment with ignoring chords between your target notes. Like in this example, look at it like one big 4 measure C chord, and play a mode on the C. Noodle on an F7 for 4 measures and see if you like that sound.

Granted no Jazz player would play it this simply, but this is a beginning point, and it will help you to train your ears and think in terms of target notes- picking a note from one chord, then another from one a few measures away- and how to get from one target note to the next. When you can think like this, then you can pick your target notes from non chordal tones, construct you own melody between your target notes, etc., and solo away.

I prefer the target note way of soloing, because I have found I can construct more interesting melodies that way. In my opinion, focusing on playing modes will result in what a jazz friend of mine calls the "whee doobies" a solo that goes "Whee, doobie, doobie, doobie", and makes no sense at all, except to be a chance to play a bunch of modes and show off chops. But a lot of players were brought up on playing modes, so YMMV. Whatever works for you.

My opinion of Diz and Bird is that they were brilliant mathematicians as well as musicians, becasue it takes a lot of brain work to figure this Be bop theory stuff out, much less play it/

Thats a great exercise in getting your head around bebop soloing. I'd also recommend checking out Jazz Improvisation for Bass from Carol Kaye at www.carolkaye.com