Double Bass What did Charlie Parker do?

[ChuckCorbis]

This constant verbalization and analysis that goes on around here almost daily, leaves me cold.

Alright Paul. No more analysis around here for 30 days, so you can warm up. As Chris likes to say,"your bitter sarcasm is duely noted". YOU WIN. But the next time you start showing off with all your techy carved double bass jargon.....I'm gonna take out my $100 bow and stick it to ya.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Google pernambuco, Chuck.

 

[ChuckCorbis]

I had that last week. It's a delicacy. It tastes like veal. Wow. I didn't realize they make bows out of lamb chops.

 

[fdeck]

I didn't realize they make bows out of lamb chops.

Making bows requires chops, that's for sure, but not lamb.

 

[Pcocobass]

I think if one were to listen to Bird, it would be obvious to him or her that he is playing the changes. This is the definition of in, not out. #9, b9, #11, b13 -- all of these describe upper extensions of the Dominant chord. Bird played these over the Dominant chord, no? Hence, playing the changes.

 

[JtheJazzMan]

Verbose thread is verbose. Though it does remind me of a point an old teacher used to make about those transcription books. He said the player who got the most out of those books were the ones who transcribed it in the first place.

That really stuck with me.

 

[MolluskGoneBad]

First of all, non chord tones are not the same as "outside the structure". Seems pretty clear that your "knowledge" of theory is getting in the way of using your ears. Bird used his ears for sure, not a textbook. Dizzy said he never once saw bird sit at a piano...

Lots of players play the maj 7 over dominant chords, F# is the b9 used everywhere in jazz. Eb and Bb are the b9 and #5/b13 of the D7 once again all over the place. This stuff is not really considered "outside".

This also brings up a point belabored on the music forums I used to frequent when I played sax; the Omnibook isn't always transcribed properly. At the very least, there are often misspellings of the same tone that make his solos less comprehensible if you're trying to do structural analysis.

It's a nice resource, but you're better off slowing down the records and transcribing yourself, especially when it comes to phrasing.

 

[gmarcus]

Blues is played from the heart
Bebop is played from the head
Swing is somewhere in between.

Bebop is kind of like a secret handshake that you have to learn in order to get into the jazz world and be accepted by those who took the time to figure it out.

At a blues jam....whoever creates the biggest party wins.

Just different ways of having fun............

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Blues is played from the heart
Bebop is played from the head
Swing is somewhere in between.

Naw, all great music is played from the heart.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Blues is played from the heart
Bebop is played from the head
Swing is somewhere in between.

Whew. After all these years...........
Hey, Eric....dint you tell me Spring break was over?

 

[monroe55]

Here's a clip showing the difference between Charlie Parker and the saxophones players that came before him:

My introduction to be bop was "Salt Peanuts" by Dizzy. I had read that Be Bop was an exact contemporary with Bluegrass music so I sought it out. Both started in the mid forties. I hear Be Bop as different from Swing because swing was more ordered, danceable, straight timed.
Be bop sounds more focused on improvisation and it's faster tempos. They play with time more in be bop, different drum accents and solos extended past the regular changes. Those cats blow a different wind. Nervous and fragmented, those altered scales.
There was swing in early bluegrass, four beats to the measure. They say Charlie Christian was early be bop. I heard him blowing with Glenn Miller and he was extending the range that was normal in swing, blowing the head all to hell but it worked so perfectly.


I don't get it very well but I think I can hear the difference between be bop and swing. That comparison video you linked, those guys are so above me but I can hear it. Coleman, so melted chocolate smooth riding over changes as easy as a tide rolling in.
You are a true musician, more than most if you can comprehend all that stuff.
Forget all the bullsh*t about having a respectable profession to please the world. Musician is the most respectable of all. We are the last of the shamans and people need us more than any other form of culture. People think, oh, he's just having fun playing but it is hard work and it bites off pieces of yourself in the process. It is the most noble thing a person can do if they have the ability. It is so under appreciated and so desperately needed by society. It's healing and comforting in a way that nothing else is.

The difference: Swing is something I can dance to, I can get it with toe taps and dance steps, be bop is something I can only get with my central nervous system and a big chunk of my primitive brain but I have to inch my way through the splintered sounds. You guys are musicians, I'm more
a bang a stick on a rock tribalist

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

is "inside" and "outside"./

I think this phrase is misleading - so Bird and Diz did not play any notes "outside" of the chord structure - true they made use of upper extensions - but usually when Jazz musicians or critics talk about playing "outside", they are referring to the changes that came with Ornette Coleman and Free Jazz.

So - playing outside is usually considered to be using notes that are outside the key centre.

 

[Gornick]

The difference: Swing is something I can dance to, I can get it with toe taps and dance steps, be bop is something I can only get with my central nervous system and a big chunk of my primitive brain but I have to inch my way through the splintered sounds. You guys are musicians, I'm more
a bang a stick on a rock tribalist

Amiri Baraka wrote something along the lines that back in the day when he would be told that Bebop wasn't danceable he would respond " YOU can't dance to it (or anything else for that matter)."

 

[Paul Warburton]

Simply put (if that's possible any more) the term "outside" when used by Jazz musicians means one thing. Outside of the structure of the tune, song or material.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Amiri Baraka wrote something along the lines that back in the day when he would be told that Bebop wasn't danceable he would respond " YOU can't dance to it (or anything else for that matter)."

I think people also need to bear in mind that Charlie Parker played tunes with a Latin feel like "My Little Suede Shoes" and a lot of tunes on his most famous recordings are actually pretty easy to dance along to...?

And when you consider Dizzy's career - there is a huge amount of dance music there!

 

[Alexi David]

#4 this, Bebop scale that.......Everyone keeps talking about pitch.........jeez.....what about the rhythm???

I saw this while in school. One of the main problems with "jazz education" is that it spends 95% of its time focusing on melodic pitch instead of melodic rhythm.

Hal Galper told me that when Dizzy did a week with them (Phil Woods group), all he did was talk about rhythm. 'Nuff said.

.....Thousands of graduating students that know every scale backwards and sideways but couldn't swing if you hung 'em from a tree.

 

[Paul Warburton]

#4 this, Bebop scale that.......Everyone keeps talking about pitch.........jeez.....what about the rhythm???

I saw this while in school. One of the main problems with "jazz education" is that it spends 95% of its time focusing on melodic pitch instead of melodic rhythm.

Hal Galper told me that when Dizzy did a week with them (Phil Woods group), all he did was talk about rhythm. 'Nuff said.

.....Thousands of graduating students that know every scale backwards and sideways but couldn't swing if you hung 'em from a tree.

Huge, bold and on the spot info. (especially).
And where in hell you been, Lexi?

EDIT: I would add that I'm sandwiched in between several colleges that have Jazz programs here in Colorado. I don't know of one student (and most of the teachers) that have a true handle on the element of swing. I've suggested Victor Wooten's (who is not specifically a Jazz musician) "The Music Lesson" to some of the teachers and some of my students are into it. This simple little book has done more to help people I know start to build a foundation for their work than any Jazz program that I'm aware of around here. I also find it amazing that it's written by a person who doesn't claim to be a Jazz musician.
Hey Bruce......have you checked this out yet? I HIGHLY recommend it.

 

[GrindYourMind]

Not playing completely diatonic solos, not starting and stopping phrases at the beginning and end of a bar, much longer phrases, utilizing the bass as time keeper instead of the drummer (swing was a four on the floor kick drum counting out quarter notes) while Bop was suddenly a big cluster of odd dynamics on the kit, their timbre was also much more extreme than the previous playersl thats all I can think off of the top of my head,

 

[Paul Warburton]

For the possibly confused: When Lexi and I use the term ""swing", we are not alluding to "Swing Jazz" per se. Jazz musicains use that term when they are talking about the feel, the groove (as Victor puts it), or the pocket.
Like....." It don't Mean A Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing" and godammit, it don't.

 

[Clay_Bass]

Hal Galper told me that when Dizzy did a week with them (Phil Woods group), all he did was talk about rhythm. 'Nuff said.

I've been in Hal's ensemble for this whole school year. I couldn't get enough from just one semester. He has really transformed my playing faster than anyone else I've ever studied with. For a while now most of what we've been talking about is rhythm. I think the big thing Hal talks about that no one else has ever mentioned to me is how all jazz syncopation comes from the second line march beat. Not 1,2,3,4 he has been having us take solos completely focused on rhythm (ie take a drum solo on your instrument, don't think about pitch at all) Also something that has really helped is scatting lines or heads monotone. Like confirmation da da da, da da da da-da-da da da da da da da, da da
Also articulation was a big thing with the beboppers that seems to have been lost among my generation of students. Everyone's just playing 8th note lines loud soft loud soft, or swallowing every other note etc. Hal calls this fake articulation.

His thing is so deep sometimes students blow it off, in order to really get this stuff you really have to flip almost everything you've ever learned about jazz around. But as I said I've had the most musically productive year of my life studying with him. I'll be forever in debt to him for showing me all this stuff.

I'd love to take a couple weeks and just listen to all of the recordings of our rehearsals and turn it all into a word document or something.